Pvp Help?

[KillerKittens17]

Hey guys,

I'm a newish player (only played since the silver hunter release, and I've just started to get kinda serious).
So everywhere I look, our classes get a bad rap in pvp for being extremely easy. I DON'T GET IT! I mean don't get me wrong, I'm horrid at pvp anyways, but the sorc classes all seem to be pretty diffiuclt to me. Can y'all offer some advice, specifically for Black Mara? I've looked at all the videos on youtube, and I still don't get what it is I'm doing. T__T

A comprehensive guide on the subject would be super appreciated (something like the one here for chaos/ware mages)

Thanks, friends!

[Couplord]

If you message me on discord, I can explain in detail... but Kali / Moonlord / Every Sorceress / Every Academic ETC:

They basically have a really low learning curve and are known as extremely easy... because well they pretty much are... Granted you know the basics of PVP.
In one of their conferences. the developers I believe said Kali and Assassin was meant to be for new players to be able to pick up and learn easily.

Is there a Sorceress you need help with in general? If it is Black Mara then basically.

Alot of her moves allow her to stay away or get out of bad situations, She has three escapes while most other classes have one... A certain skill is bugged apparently, giving her infinite super armor for 5 or so seconds, and the skill itself is on a low cooldown.


She has rather high super armor and Auto aim type homing skills. She can break your super armor too, flooring you in her poison allowing her to spam practically any skill onto you to get bubbles... or possibly ending the game right there. The fact that Toxic Spray can deny your escape in itself is pretty broken... and It is rather frustrating to have your Air evade up but be denied its usage for a relatively long duration of time while they can pretty much spam every skill they have ready at the time.

And then there's transform... allowing her the ability to abandon her long ranged skills for the ability to increase her burst damage to an insane amount making her dangerous to approach.

All of that combined with how naturally all the Black Maras feel they have the need to kite or run away instead of just simply learning how to play in close quarters and adopting the "Anything it takes to win" strategy, plus the fact that no one Softbans their ridiculous skills is why BlackMara is high tier in PVP... Well all this is for One vs One anyway, Team PVP is simply about what team has the most players that can spam a certain Area of effect skill... It's kind of a mess now and it requires very little thinking.

[Couplord]

To quote something posted just yesterday, "well you do have Tumble, Haze, Inhale, Wraith Form, Meaningless, and Contracts so that slight delay can be chained to something else...that's the beauty of Black Mara, you pretty much have solutions for almost every problem...almost xD"

She isn't easily punished at all she is actually quite hard to punish... I will take my leave from this thread now , players always try to defend the class they are playing but that's just nature... People need to honestly realize their classes strengths and weaknesses before they give out any advice or complain about a classes shortcomings before they actually put in the hours and learned how a class preforms...

[Mirajane]

sis. i offered to fight you on your mara since you claim she is so easy and hard to punish so i can show you how mistaken you are. but u ignored me lmao

a good bunch of you SEA players like to claim 'X class is op' cos you dont wanna invest enough effort in learning the weaknesses of the said class which is why most of yall are taken as a joke. youre usually the ones to play the broken classes too. notice how you conveniently left out ur class when mentioning classes that are extremely easy? quite typical of a glad main tbh so i'm not surprised :<

i said it once and i'll say it again. anyone can make any class sound broken if you overdramatize their pros and leave out the cons. until you spend enough time both playing and fighting against black mara, don't go spreading your propaganda here cos ppl are quick to tell if youre biased and/or have no idea what youre talking about ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ i have no problem calling out bullshit when i see it

[Kuru]

People are quick to tell if you're biased, that's why you're taken as a joke now Mirajane. People understand that you've probably got no real experience in PvP beyond black mara and you just assume everyone else is against you and your class is so infinitely harder than theirs. Instead of stepping out of your lil spunk bubble, you blindly defend your class and pretend like everyone else is wrong.

[KillianQ]

From personal experience in laddering using Black Mara...you rarely get to transform in a match because the match is pretty much done before you collect enough bubbles. Just take note of your escapes and use them properly (Tumble, Inhale, Wraith Form, Haze)

I'm not a Pro but let me share you my experience in using Black Mara.
First off i'll talk about Haze...this skill is AWESOME in pvp, able to catch your opponents off-guard, and also can be used to dodge and counter at the same time...best if you use the double hit haze which lifts the opponent on the 2nd hit...also gives you 2 EC's where you can then use to follow-up the initiation...

ex.
Haze>left click>Ripping>hold left click>Black Strike/Void Coil/Smoke Storm

this depends on your distance from your opponent, if you're close enough you can use Turbulence into Insult (no need to worry about wasting Insult cause you won't hit all of it in PVP anyways)

Next would be Ebony Spark...i rarely use this cause i honestly forget most of the time but in my experience right click Ebony Spark is actually better because if you PVP with Black Mara you're always about mid to close range from your opponent because it's easier to hit them and you only have to kite them using Haze and your other escape skills...right click Ebony Spark can also be an initiate since it lifts both you and your opponent up which you can then follow up with Insult...you can also Air Blink or use Inhale, Wraith Form, and Ripping so being in mid-air isn't too much of a problem cause you can get back down easily...and don't forget Hammer Strike (the mid-air special attack of Sorcs)

Wraith Form should NEVER be spammed and should only be used in emergencies (like being juggled or to dodge ults or stuff)

Most of your skills hit downed targets so make use of that...and Void Coil is so great in counter-initiating...getting hit by it up close can lock your enemy down for about 2 secs (i think) and you can follow-up with Meaningless, Wheeling Staff, or Haze (without pressing any direction)

Cleaving should be used wisely cause the charging time is too long

Entomb is your best friend...i usually cast this with Void Coil and Black Strike, or when i waste EC's...hard to dodge and extremely deadly...speaking of deadly...you can use Deadly Smoke to dodge as well and combined with Entomb your enemy is pretty much dead...even before you transform

and if all else fails you can still transform :P although the only skills i find useful while transformed is Black Strike and Smoke Storm...also the EC spam

these are basically my experience...again im not a pro so some would probably disagree with this...i just thought i could share how i use Black Mara in PVP

[Mirajane]

The 2nd hit of haze only causes a light flinch. The 1st hit is the one that knocks down

[KillianQ]

then again if you hit both you'll have the opponent in the air for a short period...you can chain turbulence to lift them up a bit more too

[Zeref]

People have kept this stigma against the sorc class since they used to rule pvp back in 32-50 cap. That mindset has been long outdated (since kali release in 60 cap) especially now where most classes can pretty much stand their own ground against sorcs (notably glad, LK, reaper, AW, acros, adept, kalis) with the exception of only a select few.

I mean sorcs do have a low learning curve having prob the widest aoe radius on their skills but you still can't go around just mindlessly spamming skills cuz any competent player will instantly know you have no clue what you're doing and be able to turn that around to their advantage (granted most people you'll probably see in the arena are veterans who have years of experience & an above average understanding of most classes.. so just keep practicing)


Mara is still pretty new to NA and there's not a whole lot of people who can pilot it well in pvp atm. That being said, a lot are also lazy bums who refuse to learn how to fight against the class so if you get a good understanding of how your skills work, you should be able to take advantage of that. As a mara, you don't have any notable bursts but your damage is almost evenly & consistently spread out among your core skills which is great, as you also have a lot of utility skills to keep your opponents at bay. Aside from learning the pvp basics, most important factor though is your build followed by your skill crests. I wouldn't expect a typical pve build to excel in pvp so you might want to have one specifically designed for pvp.

I'd recommend something like this:
http://https://dnskillsim.herokuapp.com/na/blackmara-95/-4---0-0F4----0-K0300--30D0AH0-0E000F0-AA--90---0---00----0-0-0-0-0--

Main difference from PVE build is your reliance on toxic spray & shockwave. You should also be making use of ebony spark B (right click) and turbulence often for damage + quick setup for insult. I recommend practicing until you can consistently beat Hard mode AIs.


For skill crests I'd recommend void coil, insult, haze, & shockwave; all crafted for cooldown reduction. These are your core skills and having them on a lower cooldown means being able to defend & counterattack as soon and often as possible (especially most good players will tend to rush in your face via dash and try to eat your escapes before your skills even come into play)

[Mirajane]

ripping is good to cancel low sa skills but it has an aftercast delay so if you end up missing it or they sa through it then ur screwed. casting entomb w/o catching ur opponent beforehand will just encourage kiting. ur better off cresting slap or ebony spark lol

[KillianQ]

well you do have Tumble, Haze, Inhale, Wraith Form, Meaningless, and Contracts so that slight delay can be chained to something else...that's the beauty of Black Mara, you pretty much have solutions for almost every problem...almost xD

[Mirajane]

KillianQ out of the skills you mentioned only blink (air blink) can cut its animation short. yup, little trivia but casting ripping actually enables you to make use of air blink which lets u cut its animation short. (meaning even if ripping is casted on the ground, ur still considered a little airborne) turbulence does the same job and is useful to chain after ripping while also setting up for a safe insult. the other skills you mentioned can't be used til after the aftercast delay, and using contracts after missing ripping is a gamble cos they can break your sa and possibly waste your power evades.


but since Couplord quoted your post out of context to me and assumed you were listing mara strengths, i'll point out to him that the only notable skill out of that list is haze, which i won't deny is too good being both a reliable damage source and knockdown tool for maras. i mentioned inhale above being the tradeoff to the usual nuke tied to other classes' 50 skill while wraith form's insane utility is hella offset by its cd, meaning youll hardly be seeing it come into play as matches generally end beforehand.

tumble is something accessible to every class. meaningless is just a copy/paste stagger of FU's void blast with attribute resistance tied to it, while also counteracted by having more than 4x longer cd. contracts are unique in its own sense and can serve as a secondary source of dmg after charging it up. void coil and turbulence are great skills that would be on the list if we were to enlist mara's main strengths.

while mara has very distinct skills that make her stand out, do note that she lacks the burst that 90% of the classes have on their 32 and 50 skills. smoke storm does about 500/hit if maxed and inhale is pure utility as aforementioned. most of her dmg comes from void coil, haze, ebony spark and turbulence instead. insult is questionable cos while its an adequate source of contract charges, it has a long cast time with no iframe and very little sa which can leave you for dead if used incorrectly.

so yea. not denying her strengths but painting a poor and inaccurate image of mara screams for a need to be educated so there u have it (:

[Fabulous]

I unfortunately wasn't motivated to play much of Black Mara, but this video from cDN was impressive. Niglet from NA is also great. Good luck~

[KillerKittens17]

Thank you guys so much for the advice! It was super helpful :3

[Amaterasu]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjHKYvF1dxY

3 months ago so was a little sloppy xD

[KillerKittens17]

Is there any way some of you might be willing to teach me in game how to do this?

[KillianQ]

you can add me and we can spar together IGN: xZefrax

[SkitzoRoy]

Bit of a late reply, but I figured I might have something to contribute here. Anywho..

I am going to do my best not to go on about BM being top tier (I'll slide in that I believe most of the community does think it is top tier, so be ready to argue a lot if you think otherwise), instead, I'll share the sab/sa values of all the BM skills that I and some friends tested out upon its initial release (that the spreadsheet couplord linked doesn't have cuz I can't get them to update it). If you learn these values, Shadow Shell should be especially.. useful.. (especially if you learn the values of other classes).
However: Transform, Wraith Form, Shadow Shell, Entomb are the skills that will put you over the edge in matches. If you're practicing fundamentals, try playing without these skills. Shadow Shell and Entomb are especially frowned upon being used in normal 1v1s in NA. Try making a 1v1 wipeout room if you'd like to use all of your skills, that way, whoever joins knows your intentions of not restricting "frowned upon" skills.

Ripping: 100 sab per hit (3 hits total), 400 sa; LI; 15 sec cd
Cleaving:
level 1: 200 sab + 10 sab per hit (2 hits)
level 2: 300 sab + 10 sab per hit (4 hits)
level 3: 600 sab + 10 sab per hit (6 hits)
, 600 sa; LI & Stagger; 18 sec cd
Void Coil: 50 sab per hit (12 hits total), 1000 sa; LI & Stagger; 11 sec cd
Black Strike: 150 sab per hit (5 hits total), 600 sa; LI; 32 sec cd
Smoke Storm: 200 sab + 50 sab per hit (13 hits), 600 sa; Knockdown & LI; 38 sec cd
Haze: 600 sab, 400 sa, has iframe when direction key is held when cast; Lift; 18 sec cd
Wraith Form: iframe; 90 sec cd
Shadow Shell: (buff), 400 sa; 40 sec cd
Entomb: 20 sab per hit, 400 sa; Stagger; 50 sec cd
Meaningless: 400 sab, 400 sa; Stagger; 25 sec cd
Complete Darkness: (buff), 400 sa; 60 sec cd
Ebony Spark: right click 400 sab, left click 200 sab, 400 sa; LI or Stagger; 11 sec cd
Insult: 50 sab per hit, (13 hits total), 400 sa while casting, unable to be knocked down (not really infinite sa) when walking for 5 sec once falling (gravity crush being an exception); Stagger; 15 sec cd
Turbulence: 100 sab per hit (2 hits total) both passives, 400 sa; Stagger; 25 sec cd
Deadly Smoke: 50 sab per hit (20 hits total), iframe; Stagger; 225 sec cd
Black Mara: 200 sab per hit casted normally (4 hits total), 800 sab with 's' held when used, 600 sa (both ways of casting); LI or Lift; 3 sec cd
Inhale: 200 sa, iframe; 40 sec cd
BM Ripping: 100 sab per hit (5 hits total), 600 sa; LI; 15 sec cd
BM Cleaving: 1200 sab, 800 sa; Lift; 18 sec cd
BM Void Coil: 100 sab per hit (9 hits total), 800 sa; LI; 11 sec cd
BM Black Strike: 100 sab per hit (4 hits total), 800 sa, has iframe; Lift; 32 sec cd
BM Smoke Storm: 200 sab per hit (20 hits total), 1800 sa; Lift; 38 sec cd
BM Inhale: 600 sab, 200 sa, iframe; Lift; 40 sec cd
Enhanced Haze A: 600 sab or 600 sab from air, 400 sa; Lift or LI; 18 sec cd
Enhanced Haze B: 600 sab + 300 sab, 400 sa; Lift & LI; 18 sec cd
Enhanced Ebony Spark A: right click 400 sab, left click 200 sab per hit (3 hits total), 400 sa; LI or Stagger; 11 sec cd

Lastly, if you can get a hold of Airisu or Philemina (finalists in the Black Mara tourney hosted a while ago), they can probably show you a few things by watching them fight.

[Mirajane]

big part of the reason why the community thinks mara is top tier is cuz they dont know how to fight one. if you stay on top of her before her skills come off cd you already have the upper hand

plz dont twist my words tho cuz im aware mara is in the upper end of the tier list but when one says TOP tier, u should be thinking of a dozen other classes that are easier to be abused. lk glad adept ripper.. all these sm players just exaggerate the fuck out of female classes screaming "OP" when their classes are the main ones that need to be gutted since a few caps ago