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Maximizing Damage Potential: Elemental Conversion Jades

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  • #16
    I'd just like to point out an error you made in the computation for "Ran's" attack with Teardrop. The only time it will ever work that way is if you have nothing else equipped. Otherwise it will not give you a flat out 8.5% bonus.

    if we assume Ran and Conan has complete gear, that means plates, costumes etc. With SGG, Conan would have approximately 39.5% total bonus ATK (correct me if I'm wrong, but this is the number I came up with after a quick mental count).

    If we apply this 39.5% as a bonus to their base that would yield them 100k each, their atk would be BASE * 1.395 = 100k, or their base being 71.6846k ATK.

    Now, since the correct computation for ATK with additional is NEW ATK = BASE * (ORIGINAL% + ADDITIONAL%), this would mean that Ran, would be getting:

    NEW ATK = 71.6846k * (1.395 + 0.085) = 106.0932k ATK [ Teardrop gives 8.5% ]

    Plugging this into your equation:

    Damage = ATK * ELE% = 106.0932 * 1.4 = 148.5305

    It's marginally better, but not as much. If you count 0.35% better as being "better", then sure, it is.

    Also, this only works for titles. Once you start comparing ATK jades vs ELE jades, things get a bit more hairy.

    -----

    Could you elaborate on what you mean by "threshold"? I am sort of at a loss as to what you mean by it.

    Comment


    • vangeodee
      vangeodee commented
      Editing a comment
      @zArAthena

      Here's a friend of mine, he's an RM, therefore ECJ user.

      https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...2913/image.png

      Also, as per your doubts regarding 95U ele% better than 95U atk%, I have a post detailing the limits at which ele% will be better than atk% (which, btw is close to impossible to get). The post is still pending approval though.

      Basically, in it i'm saying that if your ele% is lesser than your atk%, 95U ele% jades will be a better choice.

    • vangeodee
      vangeodee commented
      Editing a comment
      @zArAthena

      I have a post pending approval explaining in what scenarios will 95U ele% be better than 95U atk%. anything I post that has a link on it automatically goes into pending. god dammit. Anyway, it was an RM that uses ECJ, so naturally, ele% will be better.

      Basically, the gist of it is that if you have 90% bonus atk stacked, you will need an ele% of over 90% to make an atk% jade a better choice. For native elemental classes, especially those that have element buff, as long as the total ele% goes over your total atk%, then the atk% will be better.
      Last edited by vangeodee; 12-10-2017, 12:10 AM.

    • zArAthena
      zArAthena commented
      Editing a comment
      @vangeodee
      Try post without the link. Then edit and add the link. It will work.
      General gear is you will get around 70% atk while for native ele user, you can reach 100% ele. Which is why atk% jade better.
      Last edited by zArAthena; 12-10-2017, 12:10 AM.

  • #17
    I was thinking back to an old discussion on the CC Forums about the point of equivalence of ele% and atk% (particularly in jade selection).

    Credits to Naos for classily handing me my ass in this discussion, for anyone that wishes to have a look, here it is: http://forum.cherrycredits.com/topic/266579-elemental/

    For those that are too lazy to open another link, read on.

    Naos explained to me (and everyone else) that only at a certain base ele% would an atk% jade be a better choice. Let's go with my DA, a quick round up of all the atk% bonuses I have are:

    7% - teary eyed
    10% - dest jade
    10% - x2 Genesis Rings
    6% - Engineer Sword
    3% - Engineer Gauntlet
    8% - Engineer Helm
    7% - Engineer Boots
    1.5% - Weapon Engravings
    3% - Prototype Wings
    8% - Prototype set effect
    1.2% - Spirit bonus
    30% - CM II

    This gives a total of: 94.7% atk

    So, we're trying to figure out at what base ele% would an atk% jade be on par with an ele% jade.

    If we're to assume 90L jades, the 95L destruction would be 4.5% atk, my atk% with a 90L destruction jade would then become 99.2% or 1.992. Since we've established that damage is equal to ATK*ELE*FD, let's assume FD is constant and our base atk is constant (which it won't be for 90L, but let's just make that assumption for now). Our equivalence equation can then be expressed as:

    (x + 0.086) * 1.947 = 1.992x

    x = 3.721 or 272.1% element. -> This means that at 272.1% base element (with a 94.7% base atk), a 4.5% atk jade would give the same increment as an 8.6% atk jade. Crazy, right?

    Now let's move on to 95 Uniques. Assuming I have Calypse (which I don't) I have the option of using either: an 8.5% atk or 8.5% ele jade (both jades have the same base atk bonus so this is now an apples to apples comparison). Going by the same logic and equation as before, our equivalence is expressed as:

    (x + 0.085) * 1.947 = 2.032x

    x = 1.947 or 94.7% element -> this means that with 95U jades (or 95 jades for that matter), at 94.7% element with a base atk% of 94.7%, an atk% jade will be on par with a ele% jade.

    So what does this all mean? Basically, if you total your base atk%, the number you get would be your ele% theoretical limit. Going over it would result in stacking ele% giving less than stacking atk% (hence, diminishing returns).

    So, the threshold is not "around 32%", the threshold for 95 is your base atk% prior to using atk% jade.

    Comment


    • #18
      I was thinking back to an old discussion on the CC Forums about the point of equivalence of ele% and atk% (particularly in jade selection).

      Credits to Naos for classily handing me my ass in this discussion, for anyone that wishes to have a look, here it is: and it's gone. fuck it

      For those that are too lazy to open another link, read on.

      Naos explained to me (and everyone else) that only at a certain base ele% would an atk% jade be a better choice. Let's go with my DA, a quick round up of all the atk% bonuses I have are:

      7% - teary eyed
      10% - dest jade
      10% - x2 Genesis Rings
      6% - Engineer Sword
      3% - Engineer Gauntlet
      8% - Engineer Helm
      7% - Engineer Boots
      1.5% - Weapon Engravings
      3% - Prototype Wings
      8% - Prototype set effect
      1.2% - Spirit bonus
      30% - CM II -> multiplier

      This gives a total of: 64.7% * 1.3 = 84.11%

      So, we're trying to figure out at what base ele% would an atk% jade be on par with an ele% jade.

      If we're to assume 90L jades, the 90L destruction would be 4.5% atk, my atk% with a 90L destruction jade would then become 88.61% or 1.8861. Since we've established that damage is equal to ATK*ELE*FD, let's assume FD is constant and our base atk is constant (which it won't be for 90L, but let's just make that assumption for now). Our equivalence equation can then be expressed as:

      (x + 0.086) * 1.8411 = 1.8861x

      x = 3.5185 or 251.85% element. -> This means that at 251.85% base element (with a 84.11% base atk), a 4.5% atk jade would give the same increment as an 8.6% atk jade. Crazy, right?

      Now let's move on to 95 Uniques. Assuming I have Calypse (which I don't) I have the option of using either: an 8.5% atk or 8.5% ele jade (both jades have the same base atk bonus so this is now an apples to apples comparison). Going by the same logic and equation as before, our equivalence is expressed as:

      (x + 0.085) * 1.8411 = 1.9261x

      x = 1. 8411 or 84.11% element -> this means that with 95U jades (or 95 jades for that matter), at 84.11% element and with a base atk% of 84.11%, an atk% jade will be on par with a ele% jade. (I forgot to consider my fire buff)

      So what does this all mean? Basically, if you total your base atk%, the number you get would be your ele% theoretical limit. Going over it would result in stacking ele% giving less than stacking atk% (hence, diminishing returns).

      So, the threshold is not "around 32%", the threshold for 95 is your base atk% prior to using atk% jade.
      Last edited by vangeodee; 12-10-2017, 09:37 PM.

      Comment


      • zArAthena
        zArAthena commented
        Editing a comment
        Yup. Your underlying point is true. Just like I usually said: comparing your atk% and ele%, try to add which is lower.
        However, your threshold is a little bit off. ~70% atk is nearly the max. That why I quite surprise when you mention 90% atk.

      • vangeodee
        vangeodee commented
        Editing a comment
        However, it's important to note that this is true for 95 jades ONLY. When you are comparing 90/93, the baseline ele% for atk% viability skyrockets.

        Again, thanks for pointing out that you can't add the skill atk bonuses. I'll edit the post to reflect this.

      • nvLite
        nvLite commented
        Editing a comment
        Please note that the threshold is somehow directed to ECJ users with reference to offensive jades.

        It is, from what I know, the start of ECJ conversion as you need to gain elemental damage by replacing destruction or magic to elemental jades.

        Hence for Jades, threshold should be roughly around 32% for 95E jades as this is the only factor that changes regardless of cash gears.

        Again, let us not complicate things with too much equation. The purpose of the post was to point out diminishing returns.

    • #19
      Hi, as a black mara i have 67% dark attack without buffs (87%) with buffs but only 20% magic attack from customes. Should i change my dragon jade on my weapons for 8% magic attack each?? It would be 51%(71% with buff) dark attack and 36% magic attack... Should i reduce my dark attack more and change it to Magic attack %??

      Comment


      • vangeodee
        vangeodee commented
        Editing a comment
        A Friend tested this out, if you're referring to 95 jades, then a 50-50 ratio (2 atk%, 2 ele%) would be a good start.

        But again, best way to know is to compute for yourself.

      • xynoanex
        xynoanex commented
        Editing a comment
        even the 10% from heraldry counts into atk% right ?

      • Xenocho
        Xenocho commented
        Editing a comment
        xynoanex yes

    • #20
      zArAthena

      I was preparing an excel for my friends to use, and I was wondering about how bubble stacking affects stats.

      I made a simulation of a naked DA in dngearsim, and I got the following stats:

      naked: 3.7k str
      bear plate: 5.4k str (which is basically (3.7k + 1.2k) * 1.1)
      bear + bubbles: 9.8k str (which is (3.7k+1.2k) * {1+0.1+0.9})

      In this case (bubble stack), the total % you get from bubble stacking is added to the total % you have from gears.

      Is the preceding calculation true only for bubble stacking? Because if we assumed your point of atk% from CMII as a multiplier to total atk% from gear to be true, shouldn't it work the same way for bubble stacking as well? Does the 30% from Raven's CM-something add to the base, or is a multiplier to the base?
      Last edited by vangeodee; 12-13-2017, 09:23 PM.

      Comment


      • Xenocho
        Xenocho commented
        Editing a comment
        Gears are.. similar.

        White number = MATK from INT = Total INT * atk multiplier. For Adept, it is 0.8 matk per int
        Green number = MATK from GEAR = Gear MATK + (Gear and White number * matk %)
        Blue number = MATK from SKILLS = (White MATK + Green MATK) * (Matk %)


      • vangeodee
        vangeodee commented
        Editing a comment
        which is why I use the neutral term atk.

        So if a class has str% from CM (like raven) it works the same as bubble that multiplies to post-gear stats? or does it work some other way?

      • Xenocho
        Xenocho commented
        Editing a comment
        The stat gain will be shown as post-gear stats, but the conversion of that stat into matk will increase the white number, which then undergo % increment from gear to increase the green number and will then be subjected to skill matk %, increasing the blue number.

        Sorry if the sentence above is a bit confusing.

    • #21
      Originally posted by vangeodee View Post
      zArAthena

      I was preparing an excel for my friends to use, and I was wondering about how bubble stacking affects stats.

      I made a simulation of a naked DA in dngearsim, and I got the following stats:

      naked: 3.7k str
      bear plate: 5.4k str (which is basically (3.7k + 1.2k) * 1.1)
      bear + bubbles: 9.8k str (which is (3.7k+1.2k) * {1+0.1+0.9})

      In this case (bubble stack), the total % you get from bubble stacking is added to the total % you have from gears.

      Is the preceding calculation true only for bubble stacking? Because if we assumed your point of atk% from CMII as a multiplier to total atk% from gear to be true, shouldn't it work the same way for bubble stacking as well? Does the 30% from Raven's CM-something add to the base, or is a multiplier to the base?
      Click image for larger version

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      Pic1: I use plate 68STR+10%
      White: base 3690
      Green: 68 + (68+3690)*1.1 = 443
      Blue: 70 (Dragon buff)

      Pic2: 30 bubble which give 90% str
      White: base 3690
      Green: 68 + (68+3690)*1.1 = 443
      Blue: 70 + (3690+443+70) *1.9 = 3852
      zArAthena - Flurry. LafielHime - Black Mara. LukaLukaNF - Black Mara. zArZeratul - Raven. FaerieMoon - Arti

      Comment


      • #22
        I usually just rely on spacem gearsim when I want to improve my char.
        Change and have a look at the pdmg/mdmg/eqhp.

        How accurate is spacem gearsim calculation?
        Is it reliable?

        Comment


        • Xenocho
          Xenocho commented
          Editing a comment
          Errr, I do not follow the effective pdmg/mdmg/hp, as they do not calculate the same way as I do (which usually is simply just ele * atk). Theirs seem to take other factors into consideration, which may be better or for worse; it is not the information I need, so I usually just use the atk, ele, crit dmg, fd and do my own calculations from there.

        • Knee
          Knee commented
          Editing a comment
          Xenocho that's the answer I'm looking for, thank you.

        • vangeodee
          vangeodee commented
          Editing a comment
          It has its own calculation, and unless we know exactly how it's calculated and what it takes into account, we cannot with 100% certainty determine the accuracy of that calculation.

          However, you can use it for comparisons between jades/plates/gears, provided that you rely on the same simulator. Makes for a quicker and less painful way to compare builds. I'd say it's a "layman's" way of comparison (since most people can't be bothered to do their own).

      • #23
        Hi guys,

        Bribot here from DN ina

        First of all thanks for the TS for making this guide.

        Just read it thoroughly, so before i have :
        ele 105%
        atp 51%

        I supposed this is not really good?

        So I did some TH-ing, somehow I manage to make it :
        ele 80%
        atp 80%

        btw I'm a raven...

        I guess this is better than before right?
        Thanks guys.

        adding up : my calculation of % is summing from gear and title only, i dont really know if this is the correct way to count or not..
        anyway, below is the list

        ELE
        jadeL 90 8.6%
        genesis neck 10%
        uniq costume lower 17%
        uniq 2nd weapon 12.5%
        ring 5%
        ring 5%
        greedy tail 6%
        greedy decal 6%
        title 10%

        ATP
        jadeL x2 90 9%
        jadeU 95 8.5%
        uniq 2nd weapon 5%
        title 10%
        genesis ringx2 10%
        uniq head costume 12%
        uniq shoes costume 11%
        uniq main weapon 7.5%
        greedy wing 7%


        Last edited by bribot; 12-28-2017, 02:35 AM. Reason: add more information

        Comment


        • Xenocho
          Xenocho commented
          Editing a comment
          It helps if you were to do a total ele and atp for convenience, provided it is correct.

          From your stats, ele 80.1%, atp 80%, total = 1.801 * 1.80 = 3.2418

          If you change the L jade to dual ele, you will get ele 80.1+8.6+8.6 = 97.3% ele, while atk power reduce by 9% to 71%. 1.973 * 1.71 = 3.37383

          Using 2 ele L jade is still stronger.

          While it is important to balance it out, you should not use the 90 L dest jade because it is 4.5% versus the ele jade of 8.6%. due to this difference, using the 2 L dark jade is better than 2 L dest jade

        • Xenocho
          Xenocho commented
          Editing a comment
          Btw your title has both atp and ele 10%?

      • #24
        my savior !!!!
        thanks Xenocho

        Comment


        • #25
          Xenocho

          yes, GODLIKE title in DN INA has ATP% & ELE%.

          A bit spoiled I guess?

          Comment


          • Xenocho
            Xenocho commented
            Editing a comment
            Yes LOL. 10% is OP. Anyway feel free to ask anything you wish ya I can help with stat and damage calculation matters

          • bribot
            bribot commented
            Editing a comment
            hahaha
            ok, thanks a lot Xenocho !!

        • #26
          Zerenix I hope you will be able to read this as your profile cannot receive Private messages nor Visitor Messages.


          Visitor post:
          Hi, i have been wondering. In my current situation, a person with no budget to even buy a costume, maybe possibly enough for the magic rings and title for elemental conversion. Should I stick to pure physical/magic?

          Because I'm planning to make Tempest, Windwalker, and Barbarian. Can you give me some tips XD
          Thank you in advance

          Good Day!

          In your current situation, are you more of a solo player or you manage to find parties?

          In my opinion, If you are more of a solo player, which is not really recommended to the game btw, sticking with Attack jades can be good temporarily, while you are farming gold or resources for going elemental.

          In a party perspective, elemental is always the way to go.

          Have a nice day!
          Lorallite (Windwalker)


          Comment


          • Zerenix
            Zerenix commented
            Editing a comment
            Yay! Thank you. Do you know the reason why I cant be messaged in private?

            And btw, Are elemental skill rings still relevant in lvl 95 cap? because I'm using chiron necklace at earrings and 2 Rune L Rings with Legend Fire Jade. My S.D has 5% elemental title , 2 magic cash ring, 3 fire jades, 1 ECJ i tink it was about 15% but when I didn't changed to elemental yet, my noob stats patk was 209 -230 k i think and it became 190-209k something like that. What would you recommend? also 3rd stats for heraldry XD

            TIA

        • #27
          Care too explain in a nutshell.

          Comment


          • ikawnathebestck
            ikawnathebestck commented
            Editing a comment
            So invest your Mattack for elem? Example pleasee :3

          • Xenocho
            Xenocho commented
            Editing a comment
            I would recommend you look through posts in this thread for mathematical examples.

          • ikawnathebestck
            ikawnathebestck commented
            Editing a comment
            Okay Thanks!

        • #28
          So if I already reached the 32% threshold on the element I chose, I can now focus on my matk? I would like to exchange 1 of my attack jade that has elemental attack to a matk jade (8.5% matk).
          my current matk is 466000 and my elemental attack is at 40%.
          I tried the illustration you gave and these were my calculations:
          422,000 x 108.5% x 1.32 = 604,388 (Here, I used 2 lightning jade + 1 matk jade)
          422,000 x 1.40 = 590,800 (Here, is 3 lightning jades)
          Is this correct?

          Comment


          • Xenocho
            Xenocho commented
            Editing a comment
            Not correct. The increase for using a matk jade is rarely fully 8.5% due to other sources of matk such as plates costumes titles. Your stat window already includes these sources of matk.

            The 32% threshold actually refers to minimum ele attack for ecj to surpass attack jades. to be extremely efficient, you need to count the total light atk versus matk % and balance them out. Calculate manually by adding up the % per gear

        • #29
          Click image for larger version

Name:	teardrop.png
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ID:	139881 Can you guys help me select a title, I farmed 150k and not sure to select teardrop or sgg on my current stats. Appreciate your feedback!

          Comment


          • Knee
            Knee commented
            Editing a comment
            Have you heard of spacem dngearsim?

          • Xenocho
            Xenocho commented
            Editing a comment
            The link you show cannot provide us with answers. Read my detailed guide on which to choose.

            Personally I don't wish to promote my guide, but honestly, the answers you seek is in there.

          • nvLite
            nvLite commented
            Editing a comment
            I added a link to Remm'y guide on the LDR portion.
            Last edited by nvLite; 06-08-2018, 07:07 AM.

        • #30
          Updated:
          - Mercenary Skills document By Silvie and Hieratia
          Lorallite (Windwalker)


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