Element and Raw damage question

[Rinfumeku]

So i was wondering what is better having 23% element or having 32% more atk power from lvl 95 jades?
Also im a gladiator and i have read the ECJ guide in which it said something i need to reach 32% element to get the element to be much more effective than the raw damage jades

[whitevoid]

my preference is 3 atk jades and that ECJ.
yes that is -15% total damage without costume but 24% raw damage is too tempting.
what i mean about raw is your base damage in town that multiplies in dungeon with buffs unlike elemental atk it is fix i mean like 50 +20 = 70 + 20 again = 90.

feel free to ask question and explore more build!

happy gaming....

[vangeodee]

See my computation below with regards to your jade setup

[NearLawlet]

So i was wondering what is better having 23% element or having 32% more atk power from lvl 95 jades?
Also im a gladiator and i have read the ECJ guide in which it said something i need to reach 32% element to get the element to be much more effective than the raw damage jades

Without debuff, 32% elemental attack = 32% attack power. However please note that when -20% elemental resist debuff is applied, 32% elemental attack >> 32% attack power simply because non-elemental attack does not benefit from the debuff effect.

That being said, it doesn't mean that choosing elemental attack is always better. You should consider the law of diminishing return when you put in too much on certain modifier.

[vangeodee]

32% elemental != 32% attack

if you're not familiar, != means "not equal".

32% elemental attack is a multiplicative factor, it will always give you a 32% multiplier at the end of damage computations. 32% attack is additive and stacks with your other attack % bonuses to affect your base attack, hence your actual gain will be only around 20~25% at best.

example:

If you have 400k ATK, the 32% element will always multiply the entire 400k atk, so you get 528k.
However, 32% atk will add to whatever your existing bonus is (let's assume 46%, quick maths from epic cash item bonuses + rune of despair)

400k / 1.46 = 273.973k -> your base atk
New atk with 32% bonus = 273.973k * 1.78 = 487.3515k

this translates to an effective increase of only 21.84%. If the atk bonus was multiplicative, you'd expect 528k atk, the same as elemental.

[NearLawlet]

Perhaps I shouldn't be too stingy with my words and just use 'comparable' instead of =

But then again, as long as TS and you understood my point that elemental attack is better, I don't see any problem with it

[vangeodee]

Fair enough. Just pointing it out, since it may be taken at face value.

[vangeodee]

Assuming a gladiator with +20 medea, full thief epic costume, cold set, no genesis and using ECJ build:

PATK - 354k-405k
ELE - 50%
FD - 17%

assuming an enemy with 0% DEF and ELE RESIST, damage = patk (averaged) x ele(%) x FD(%)
this setup gives you

damage = 379.5k * 1.5 * 1.17 = 666.0225k
If we pair this with Pslam and an elemental debuff (20% damage and 20% element)

666.0225k * 1.2 * 1.2 = 959.0724k

----

Now if I swap to full ATK jades, stats go up to:

PATK - 436k-497k
ELE - 0% (no effect since non elemental)
FD - 17%

Same assumptions as previous computation:

damage = 466.5k * 1.17 * 1.0 = 545.805k
pairing this with same debuff, however you lose the elemental debuff effect since you're non-ele,

545.805k * 1.2 * 1.0 = 654.966k

----

If we were to do whitevoid 's build:

PATK - 418k-476k
ELE - 25%
FD - 17%

damage = 447k * 1.25 * 1.17 = 653.738k
with debuffs:
653.738k * 1.2 * 1.2 = 941.382k


----

Based on the example given, which do you think is the better setup?

Disclaimer: Now that I think about it, I'm not exactly sure about multiplying element to ATK for 0% ele resist. Xenocho can confirm?

Also, do you still have that excel file with regards to elemental jades vs atk jades from way before? I remember you posted something like that on the CC forums.

[Xenocho]

That post was specifically for DA for a fixed situation, where the DA had almost or more than 100% fire attack. Also that was for 90 jades (4.5% atk), so the comparison is quite moot now, especially when the 8% attack jades are easily the best choice for that situation. I'm not sure if this is still relevant now but here it is:


About the multiplying ele to atk for % ele resist, you should, because this is a calculation of effective atk, which you did correctly.

[vangeodee]

I had a friend who asked me if 95U atk% jade was better than a 90L ele% jade, surely enough it was "better" but by a mere 0.69% which is nothing, especially if you're buying the jade off TH.

Interestingly, I tried upgrading to a 95U ele% and the ele% still did better than the 95U atk%. This is the same story for epic jades which I compared above. I've concluded that comparing same level, same grade atk% and ele% jades will have the ele% jades come out on top. The only situation where I've seen atk% win over ele% is in title comparison, more accurately sgg vs teardrop, but one can say teardrop would have a slight edge due to that extra 0.5%, especially when you consider their difference as very minor.

Pardon me since I don't know how to post pictures on this forum yet, but here's a link to an excel file I made for a friend:

https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...2913/image.png

[vangeodee]

It still holds. Comparing same-level jades to each other will yield ele% as still being superior to atk%.