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imbalance and fix discussion

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  • imbalance and fix discussion

    ok, before start, lemme expain the purpose of this thread. this thread was designed for public analysis about class, specialization,skill etc.
    Rule is simple, you write what class you think it was imbalanced (too weak or too strong), explain why you think this class imbalanced, and how to improve/nerf it .in the future, this can help developer analyze what player want for each class, and decide to implement patch for it or not

    -Barbarian was imbalanced, he was too weak, because his skill was easily canceled. Solution: improve super armor for all skill slightly so he can survive longer in combat

    wrong example:
    -Guardian was Imbalanced, he was too strong, because he can block almost all skill. solution : remove block
    the reason it was wrong, it didnt explain situation, why guardian need to remove block. it cannot be analyzed and only behave as "opinion", not "information"

    it should be written like this:
    -Guardian was Imbalanced, he was too strong, because he can block almost all skill. solution : remove block, so i can easily combo him

    with this type of writing, your intention is clear, you want nerf for guardian block so you can combo him easily. this was easier to understand than above wrong example, and it behave as "information" not "opinion"

    you can write your own suggestion about how to combat certain class. write what class you use, and what class you faced with, and your trick
    -from my exerience as destroyer, the key to combat agile class like kalis,acrobat, and swordmaster are accurate punishing swing. so when they get closer and try attacking you, you use punishing swing aimed between you and enemy. the key is not getting hit while casting it

    this was not debating topic,nor cursing. this was idea sharing thread. so if you disagree with someone opinion, you write word "i disagree with (forumer name) about (class) imbalance opinion, because i think (write your opinion).

    ok, so for the beginning, lemme start with my own opinion:

    -Moonlord was imbalanced. the cyclone is both fast and too large with sucking ability. solution: maintain the speed, but remove the sucking ability and reduce the size so he have decent combat skill in form of cyclone but not too strong so he can recatch enemy again easily

    -from my experience as barbarian, agaisnt class with melee weapon like warrior,lancea,assasin,cleric , it was highly effective to cast dash blow as your first strike continued with stomp awaken. if they avoid the dash blow, they will get hit by stomp. after stomp cast circle swing to recatch them. as long as they are in range of your skill and timed properly, they will waste their escape skill in short time with few skill.

    do not be an ignorant player, and wishing "let devs take care of pvp" and when they make mistake, write "devs useless, this is not what i want".
    at bare minimum, at last the admin of forum will read this. by writing your opinion here, they have no reason to say "i make mistake because i don't know".

  • #2
    (reserved for this thread)


    • #3
      lol guardian strong? hahaha funny my main char is a guardian and guess what...
      most sorc chars dominate guardians.
      most assasins also dominate guardians.


      • Mik
        Mik commented
        Editing a comment
        just an example on how to post on the topic he just made, not as literal as it is. so yeah..

      • Kuru
        Kuru commented
        Editing a comment
        Guardian is decently strong tho... it's not weak...You simply listed out classes that have class advantage and used them to prove a point? It's like saying that adept is weak because sins and SM's dominate it...

    • #4
      'Tis an interesting thread, that I admit, but ultimately useless since devs NEVER take player input into consideration. Many have tried, and believe me when I say you won't be the last one.

      Why, you ask? Just look at their 'DPS ranking' data ( which has been released a while ago in CDN. They said, and I quote, "To give fair chance to every classes, we will do balance patch for the low DPS classes first. (You know that low DPS classes cannot even find a right nest party…)"

      Please note that the data was released months ago, and despite Ruina placing dead last in every rank, they opt to boost Black Mara just this month in KDN despite the class' excellent performance DPS wise. So much for priority, right?

      But, nevertheless, I'll contribute to your thread by presenting an analysis over my favorite class: Assassin.

      Whoever designed Assassin as a hybrid STR-AGI class is a brain-dead idiot who should never be allowed to reproduce. Thanks to that, us Assassins have the lowest stat modifier in the game. Here's a small comparison to other class

      Attack gain per main stat: 0.5 (Assassin, Crusader); 0.75 (Flurry); 0.8 (Sorceress, Priest); 1 (Moonlord, Sting Breezer, Artillery)

      Critical gain per AGI: 3.5 (Assassin and other AGI-based classes); 4 (Artillery); 4.5 (Dancer); 5 (Gladiator, Mercenary); 5.5 (Sorceress, Flurry); 6 (Paladin); 7 (Priest)

      Critical Damage per STR/INT: 1.75 (Assassin and other AGI-based classes) 3 (Everyone else)

      Physical defense per VIT: 0.6 (Assassin, Warrior, Archer, Kali, Cleric, Lancea, Machina); 0.72 (Sorceress, Academic)

      Lowest in everything LOL.

      TL;DR AGI-based class tend to be worse than STR/INT-based class because they gain lower critical and critical damage per point, but Assassins have it worse because they utilize two stat, further reducing their attack gain and % stat bonus from Class Mastery or buff. Crusaders (another similar-yet-different hybrid class) are more lucky because they have higher critical/critical damage gain.

      EDIT: The above analysis is for PVE.

      Oracle Elder is too tough, her magic defense is ridiculously high that it's almost nigh impossible to kill Oracle Elder as a magic-based class. Solution: reduce Oracle Elder mdef

      Flurry Spinning Swing EX superarmor is too high at 1200 per second (which means you can't break it unless you can destroy 1200 sa instantly without letting it recover). Solution: reduce Spinning Swing EX superarmor to 600 or leave it at 1200 without superarmor regeneration per second.

      Adept Magma Jump superamor break is too high, it can cancel nearly every skill and it has relatively short 10 seconds cool down. Solution: reduce its superarmor break or increase its cool down to 20 seconds or more.

      Moonlord Cyclone Slash suction effect is too strong and it has very short cool down of 11 seconds. Solution, reduce Cyclone Slash suction effect/duration or increase its cool down to at least 20 seconds.
      Last edited by NearLawlet; 12-22-2017, 08:04 AM.


      • Kuru
        Kuru commented
        Editing a comment
        I'm sorry but... are you complaining assassin is weak? Honestly? Because this very much seems like you're complaining sin is weak atm... which is false... any further buffs to sin (which again, you seem to be advocating) would just be stupid...

      • NearLawlet
        NearLawlet commented
        Editing a comment
        I'm not endorsing for further buff, I'll leave that opportunity to Ruina, Smasher, GM (who, despite the recent boost, is still underwhelming since summons are easily wiped out)

        Simply changing Assassin from hybrid STR-AGI to pure STR is good enough for me.

    • #5
      please stop debating, that kind of debate, mocking, encouraging "my opinion was the best" to other was not the purpose of this thread. this was purely idea sharing thread, write your opinion, so other player can see certain class from different perspective. even if you disagree with some person opinion, i already make guide about how you write it properly. The rule was very strict, because this kind of opinion sharing is full of disagreement , so it should start with "respect" to other people opinion. if we start with intolerance no one can improve their knowledge.

      if you want to debate, do not use this thread, make your own thread. this was idea sharing thread, not debating thread.


      • #6
        Well, not sure about this. I only play DWC atm so I don't have deep insight about awakening skills in LV95 PvP content yet.
        But I can still shared some of my opinion based on some LV95 awakening PvP videos I watched, mix with my DWC experience.

        Okay, let's start,
        -Saleana was imbalanced. Her awakened Fire Wall are instant cast thus too unpredictable to avoid other than using instinct, plus high burst damage at that. The slow debuff make it even worse.
        Solution: Retain her old Fire Wall casting animation but slightly increase casting speed. While her wide spread huge AOE from awakened passive can be put into Left Click as additional attack. Also, remove slow debuff. So that everyone can have an easier time pvp with her.

        -Soul Eater was imbalanced. Her curse debuff from Spirit Paper/Birds (also Summon Totem) made your PvP life a living hell. Really tricky and hard to avoid. The curse damage in 10 sec are too painful that attempt to attack her in this state is suicidal.
        Solution: Reduce curse damage or curse duration, or both. So that getting hit by curse won't be too torturing and frustrating.

        Just my 2 cents.
        Last edited by OpinionDog; 12-21-2017, 09:05 PM.


        • #7
          Originally posted by pancimania View Post
          please stop debating, that kind of debate, mocking, encouraging "my opinion was the best" to other was not the purpose of this thread. this was purely idea sharing thread, write your opinion, so other player can see certain class from different perspective. even if you disagree with some person opinion, i already make guide about how you write it properly. The rule was very strict, because this kind of opinion sharing is full of disagreement , so it should start with "respect" to other people opinion. if we start with intolerance no one can improve their knowledge.

          if you want to debate, do not use this thread, make your own thread. this was idea sharing thread, not debating thread.
          While yes, debating might not be the intent of the thread, but you're starting something that you intend to be seriously taken into account when class balancing is handled from now on. People spreading poor information and overall false ideas will just result in DN being more broken than it already is. Machina itself is top tier (both ruina and defensio) yet i can promise you some people will ask for a buff to it, Assassins are all currently top tier right now (esp ripper/raven) and changing their stats from hybrid to pure will give them a decent stat buff overall, meaning the class will be even more stupid than it currently is. If you don't allow debating or discussion on your thread, then you get people sharing thoughts which they don't fully understand. it was already said that he'll leave the buffs to Ruina, smasher and GM... none of those 3 classes need a buff right now and any further buffs to the class will just result in more people being defensio tier. The only classes that need buffs right now are Crusader, Physician and maybe inqui. Barb needs buffs but some damage nerfs and the rest mostly just need nerfs to bring them back into the realm of "balanced"

          tl;dr: Nice idea, not a reasonable one. You can see for yourself that most people on the forums don't understand the idea of class balancing and advocate for buffs to classes that are already strong simply to make up for their lack of capabilities. Everyone looks only at the damage of the class, not taking into account:

          - Cast Speed
          - Animation Lock
          - SA
          - SAb
          - Mobility
          - Buffs
          - Debuffs
          - Potential
          - Class Counters

          Until people can reasonably take all of these things into account and properly think it through, this idea is flawed. Once again, you can see it in this thread, someone is saying guardian is weak simply because they can't beat assassin (which is guardians DIRECT COUNTER, a guardian shouldn't beat a sin of a similar skill level simply due to the matchup)

          But that's just my opinion, if you want to go ahead with this then by all means, don't let me bring you down.
          What to write here.


          • Pcc
            Pcc commented
            Editing a comment
            Sir NearLawlet u should compare dmg with overall class but not the "sisters" u said. This is what we call comparison and what we call balance by taking care overall classes but not 1. If u think smasher is weak in term of dmg then u should play more and learn more about them

          • Kuru
            Kuru commented
            Editing a comment
            "You asked for a debate? You got it"
            Do I sense some pride? But damn, YA GOT ME GOOD... but oh wait, you didn't.

            This is a PvP thread, why would you talk about PvE here, and I made this post before noticing your little edit. Also to berate is to criticize in a negative manner (But nice try using it, it was used incorrectly but all the same), while i was just using you as an example to get a point across, if you feel personally insulted by my comment then by all means go for it as that seems like a guilty conscious to me. But, I'm not here to pander to anyone's feelings anyway.

            But let's think on your "PvE" comments, changing how the stats work in PvE will of course alter PvP as well, meaning the class would be buffed going from a hybrid to a pure. Giving the class an overall stat boost.

            Secondly, you say to compare smasher to her "sisters" in terms of damage... is reading your weak point here? Since I CLEARLY mentioned above that you need to take more into account than just damage as there is more to a class than that. Smasher has things like:

            - Spectrum Shower CANNOT be cancelled.
            - Awakening laser to hold people on the ground
            - Force Mirror EX to break low SA charges
            - Beyond Time awakening
            - NTL CTC
            - Linear Ray EX (Good damage, fast charge)
            - Awakening 50 to escape most situations and break SA

            All of these give it a clear edge when in plenty of match ups. But as I've said multiple times, there's more to balance than just "damage".

            Also, when you say to compare smasher to her other specs, that's one of the dumbest comparisons since the other specs are accepted as fairly top tier... That's like saying "Ruina needs a buff, compare her to defensio and look at the difference!" It just doesn't make sense. But if you do want to talk about buffs, how about you go play Crusader or Physician for a while and we'll talk about needing a buff

            But I have to ask again, Why're you talking about PVE BALANCE in a PVP DISCUSSION thread, that's simply dumb on its own.

            Also yes, I'm always down for a debate... But a debate implies both sides have a reasonable and well thought out argument, you lack this crucial requirement. So no, I did not "get it".

            Feel free to try again, I'm always down for a reasonable debate... but before that at least formulate an argument to come at me with because, this hasn't been a debate so far... it's been you proving how little you know. Now, I'm in no rush for a response, feel free to take your time and properly think this next one through

          • Vhanzy
            Vhanzy commented
            Editing a comment
            lol why are you here when you're talking about pve? are you lost or something? and like kuru said damage isn't very reliable which needs to be nerf or booster seriously people....

        • #8
          PVP suggestion:
          From my experience as moonlord, to combat gladiator front shove froward movement, you can cancel it with triple slash with high success rate (8 out of 10 try, it cancel front shove). gladiator tend to rely alot from his front shove to catch/recatch, and they tend to cast it from afar. their skill pattern is usually Moonlight splitter>front shove, with intention player avoid the the moonlight splitter, and catch with front shove. to combat this pattern, dodge moonlight splitter, they are not fast enough to cancel mls midway, so count all 3 moonlight splitter. after that they are surely use front shove, and you cancel with triple slash. so if their pattern is MLS>front shove, your pattern is tumble>triple slash. do not use front shove as moonlord agaisnt gladi front shove, because moonlord front shove is slower than gladi.


          • #9
            All I care for now is do something about the new guillotine cross (Raven) . That slow casting and lock camera gets on my nerve on serious moments -.-
            And about other classes, Adept's ice beam should be nerfed to a percentage for making someone froze. like, "x% chance of making someone froze if hit" Because one poke with 360 degree is crazy


            • #10
              Lemme give mine:

              - As a Soul Eater main, I can attest that the class is imbalanced. The curse's DoT is insanely high. It can be easily stacked and refreshed just by spamming Spirit Paper, which has a relatively low cd. In addition, Soul Eater can summon an indestructible Totem that inflicts curse around a big radius. It stays on the field for a long time, like Sniper's cheating point flower. / Solution: Reduce the damage of curse's DoT

              - Moonlord is imbalanced. Cyclone's suction power is too high, and the suction aoe is too big. I know logical reasoning is not to be applied in DN, but how on earth can an (ML) Cyclone overpower a freaking (Maj) Blackhole?? The cooldown is pretty short, too. / Solution: Reduce Cyclone's suction area (radius), and increase the cooldown time.

              will post more next time..


              • #11
                adept: adepts are imbalanced. (playing respawn with more adepts than the other team guarantees a win mostly)
                ice beam- insta casted and not camera locked.
                magma jump- high SA, high SA break, insta cast
                elemental flair- easily casted. animation cancel

                my suggested solution: make Ice beam camera locked- it was fine when it was like this a few seasons earlier.
                magma jump- make it less SA. this is just suppose ot be a mobility skill.
                elemental flair- remove animation cancel seriously.

                also increase the CD of those skills, whats the point of the fire and ice mechanics (icing mass+ ethanol) etc etc if theyre barely used!?

                tempest: HD spam imbalanced
                hurricane dance- enough said.
                solution: tempests in the past were so balanced before the awakening and it takes to be a skileld player to be a beast with this class. but now... everyone seems to be "pro" at HD spamming.
                make the HD spam more difficult to bne casted- with more conditions etc. or simpyl remvoe the HD spam in favor of other skills.

                Silver hunter: imbalanced?
                nothing coutners her. like seriously in respawn PVP, SH can jsut fly over and hit people.
                sp;ution: i dont know... make a class specfic for aerial counter? im not sure...


                • Graupelle11
                  Graupelle11 commented
                  Editing a comment
                  It is indeed hard to fight SH in respawn. But in Capt mode and 1v1, it's a different story.

              • #12
                I'll just point out one root cause of pvp imbalance.

                Most skills with high damage and SA break are spammable, while the low damaging ones have longer cd, lol.
                Last edited by Graupelle11; 05-11-2018, 05:07 AM.


                • TaintLight
                  TaintLight commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Ahhh.... the good old dilemma of making either a powerful & flashy skill to catch people's eyes and cause them feel more interested in the game (That everyone will eventually complain "OP!!!")
                  A boring looking yet balanced skill that makes people want to say "WTF is this? Barely anything happened." but somehow keeps the current players happily entertained.

                  Oh wait, I smell marketing strategy 101. Kinda sad that either choice still destroys the R&D piggy bank, it's like the hole (of FAIL) in the overlapping area (of Balanced & Fun) that somehow exists; such is the life of devs. OTL

                • Vhanzy
                  Vhanzy commented
                  Editing a comment
                  you're kidding right? ML was the flashiest if not one of the flashiest class back then and that was the nightmare days of ML
                  being the underdog till the ex instant came about~~~

                  flashiness does not equal op if at all those skills are more technical than the simple and bland looking ones.

                • TaintLight
                  TaintLight commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Re-reading what I wrote....Yeah, you're right, Vhanzy.
                  I was thinking about the Awakening Skills (passive & active), something about them just screams more 'Wrong' than 'Right'.
                  Maybe I'm still not yet accustomed with dealing with those skills.
                  It's hard to put an idea in your mind into words, sorry about that.

              • #13
                I seriously think the biggest dilemma here is that PVP stats have become too generalized despite it having a 1v1 pvp (both all-out war or with bans) and a group pvp of indefinite sizes.

                Why not make a 1v1 stat and a group pvp stat? Both are pretty much gonna be the same but 1v1 will get a more “toned down” version of the group one simply because u will be dealing with a specific enemy and u can study them clearer because it’s only 1v1 compared to a chaotic group respawn.

                How to do this?
                Why not start with KOF or simply add the “1v1 stat balance” option when making rooms? I honestly think this will make pvp more competitive and taken more seriously than pros just quitting. But since this suggestion deals with a new feature and not just number changes, i doubt this will happen soon.


                • Graupelle11
                  Graupelle11 commented
                  Editing a comment
                  That's why we have pvp ladder in the first place, but ED chooses to close it for unknown reasons.

              • #14
                Hi Dragon nest M.
                I Played lvl60 Barbarian. The DPS was so good. it can tank and even solo on First Lair. It has a decent damge too in World Boss.
                but In Ladder Barbarians are almost useless and most of Barbarian players dont even maid to the top of the Ladder.
                Let me Specify.

                Barbarian vs Kali Screamer claas

                -kali has high advantage on Barbarians since they are mid range and barbarians almost cant catch them.
                screamer has also high damage. in just 1 skill, life of a barbarian decrease almost 20%

                -cursing slow (i dont know whats the exact name of the skill) almost decrease the speed more or less than 50% and the worst part is the skills of the barb are affected from that slow making him too easy to kill or dodge. Why not make it 20%

                becuase in my opinion screamer is over powered. some of my friends even force to switch to kali because of its advantage and I think if this will not be fix i will switch to kali too.. haha. its so stupid play a weak class hahaha
                there are alot of disadvantages on Barbarians so many to discuss

                Solid Armor barbarian- in just 1 skill of the scream that sucks you in the middle of her skill(i dont know whts the name of her skill), the solid armor are gone making him so useless (plus the cursing slow, you cant even move or skip on it) why not decrease its duration and make solid armor indestructable. that would be fine.

                P.S to the developers. Why not try to play so you can see the what classes are over powered and what classes are useless.

                sorry for being rude. actually i just played a while ago playing Barb making me stress. hahah

                thank you. I hope you get my point

                more powers DNM


                • LoliYumi
                  LoliYumi commented
                  Editing a comment
                  This is DN SEA forums sir not DNM..

              • #15
                awww.. im in the wrong forum.. hahah sorry