Lag vs Lag Abuse (be open minded and have a read)

[xSiera]

Lag VS. Lag Abuse

This post will be dedicated to the above topic, within the context of DNSEA PvP.

I think all PvP players can agree that Lag has been a part of the gameplay for very long now, and it is pretty much near impossible to have solutions for this, at least in the foreseeable future.

Lag is unavoidable and in some cases, inevitable, but i think that there is a difference between Lag AND Lag abuse.

It is of my opinion that, in the spirit of sportsmanship, players should be able to identify what lag looks like and react accordingly when they lagged.
For example, you were supposed to get launched into the air bcause you were hit by impact punch, but you lagged so u stood up immediately without using up Aerial Evasion.
The honourable thing to do in this situation, is to allow your opponent to get free hits, since it is only fair for him to do so. You got caught, so stay being caught. (or in the words of urban slang "gitgud bruh")

Lag abuse in this case would be to continue the match as if nothing happened.

In general, i think this concept is somehow understood amongst MOST (not all) Decent PvP Players, but it still eludes the vast majority, hence the creation of this post.

Thus, I implore that everyone read and understand this concept so that all of us can have a more enjoyable gaming experience.

P.S Despite what people may think, Singaporean players do experience lag too.

[Vhanzy]

Sorry but no, just be mature about it that's all, no sad excuse or act like an asshole.
it's just as you said lag is unavoidable it's annoying and frustrating but it's something we need to accept and need to adapt to no need to be honorable or something.
as the saying goes that luck is a part of skill.

[Kei]

If you lag, then accept the fact and stop moving, cuz the opponent will see you teleport or move or cast two skills at once and many more. He said that LAG is unavoidable but LAG ABUSE is avoidable. It wasn't even about adapting to lag, his point was stop abusing lag cast, lag evades, free ae by lag and such.

[Mosa]

Luck is a skill, you can say that but lag is not one. There’s nothing “lucky” about auto standing / instant falling, it’s the bad connection from your internet transmitting information to the DN server. If you lag and gets a free recovery over nothing, it’s really just a right thing to do to continue getting comboed and use your real evasions instead.

We can take a simple example, let’s say you and your friends are playing a poker game called “up or down”, which is a common drinking game that mutliple people plays with a shuffled deck, and then voice either “up” or “down” before drawing. If the card previously drawn by another player is example a 7, to voice “up” your drawn card have to be 8-K, to voice “down” your drawn card have to be A-6, drawing a 7 will make you draw another card. (Or another type would be depending on the first drawn card, if it’s lets say a 10, the players decide either “up” or “down” and then the rotation of the game would go “up” & “down” which I think the game should be fucking called “up & down” instead)

So this is literally a scenario that happened to me in real life, we were playing halfway and then this friend of mine voiced “up”, but he drew the card kinda ruthlessly and made another card flip off the deck and it was and up. He already saw both cards and the one he drew was lower, then he proceeded to taking the higher one since he called out saying it’s “considered” his card since it flipped off by his action. Over such a small drinking game we can already see such detestable attitude, and he in person wasn’t really such a nice guy as well like he does stuff like running away from Taxi without paying, stealing occasionally saying “my tax money” and some other irresponsible garbage.

The immaturity comes from only wanting to win and disregarding actual PvP mechanic / system, it doesn’t come from players trying to impart sportsmanship into PvP.

If you need no honour even at the simplest of games, then you represent how that guy is to me. You can do all you want like “it’s just a game”, or “why so serious” and any other childish remarks, but we do these because of the appreciation we have towards the game, and we respect the other player as well as respecting the mechanics and systems provided by the game. A bug is never intended, lag is never intended, they have literally no countermeasures against lag. WE are the ones devising countermeasures against lag, because that’s my acceptance towards unavoidable lags, I fucking devise shits, like reflinching mutliple times / lifting multiple times incase it didn’t work. I can say laggers are a threat to me even though I know how to catch them, because they make me use unnecessary skills just to prevent them from escaping (and depending on their lag severity I might not be able to catch them at all at times)

So overall I hope you understand xSiera’s intentions, that if people lag out of combos / catches, the supposed thing to do is just stay still and get relifted. But of course I’d be fair on this point, if you catch the same opponent and he lags out without stopping, well then fuck him back obviously, that’s your fairness, but the match would be stupid by abusing lag to win obviously but oh well.

[Skyros]

I would say that it will be a no-brainer to do that. Simply, in the context of your given situation, it becomes a problem on how much should I let myself get hit. Should I let myself get hit in the next skill that he casts after the 'lag event'? How about the consequent skill casts? What if I have an Aerial Evasion, and with the given situation, I decided to cast my AE, so that means I refrain myself from being hit while not casting AE for a 15 or so seconds?

There are a lot of lines to draw this one out. I get that your intentions are chivalrous in nature but also consider the problems if this becomes a popular ruleset. Simply, one cannot predict the other's mindset. What if the other player declares that 'you lagged out of your position, thus ruining his combo'? Would you let yourself get hit although you yourself doesn't know if this is true or not? Consider the possibilities of using this as a scapegoat for 'losing the game' and calling you a cheat or something. What if you face a newbie? Would you call him a cheat for not honoring this ruleset even if he is ignorant of this? And finally, what if, your opponent is the one who lagged and therefore could not continue his combo, would you let him hit you or would it be his fault for lagging?

A honorable and chivalrous suggestion but a highly abusable one as well. I'm pretty sure most of the pro-PVP players have countermeasures for these scenarios caused by lag. I can see that this could work in professional PVP matches but human nature deviates a whole lot from this.

[xSiera]

There are easy solutions for this. for example, you got hit by triple slash ex last hit which is supposed to launch u in the air, but u lagged out, so u remained on the floor. to remedy this, here's a step by step solution.

1) lagger acknowledged that he lagged, and stops any further actions
2) the opponent can use a low damage/low utility skill to relaunch him back in the air and the match can continue from there as per usual.
3) AE usage of lagger will still be up to him/her to decide when to AE.

As a reply to your 2nd paragraph i did mention briefly that "It is of my opinion that, in the spirit of sportsmanship, players should be able to identify what lag looks like". Being able to identify what lag looks like will aid in remedying any lag situations, and this of course comes with experience as one plays.

Workable and easy solutions. it doesn't have to be complicated. Practical as well, as i have done it many times when i fight like-minded players.

[Skyros]

Well, I can see your point. But, IMO, this wouldn't work well in public matches. I've seen this in PVP showmatches, however, in public PVP, this deviates from the human nature of things. It will also be hard to insist this as many see lag as a 'luck factor' in PVP, and would take a lifetime to properly convince the community. Sometimes really I cannot even identify if I lag abused or outplayed cause really, server lag is getting ridiculous over the years.

I would say for planned matches this is an unspoken agreement between players, but I see a hard-going for this to be publicly applied ruleset. Honor and chivalry is dead (at least in pubs, I've seen it also in the recent Deathmatch event, so I'm kinda pessimistic to this) .

[xSiera]

i agree skyros, getting EVERY player to honor this is near impossible. Thus, the point of me posting this was that if I were to get at least ONE person to hear me out, just ONE, it's a win for me.

It can be a good start for the future (where hopefully more players will abide to this)

[SadisticEin]

Lag abuse... tho tbh not all of the time you realize that you are actually lagging (especially in ladder, some ppl just don't move), sometimes it just pops up (I personally don't notice it until i try hitting up the chat). Lag abuse is kinda... subjective, you can't really say everyone who don't let themselves get hit after magically lagging is abusing it. It's not always honorable to get yourself hit after lagging especially some people don't have it and pretty much spam and lock you after they catch you.

[Teeny]

The only form of lag abuse that comes to my mind is people that intentionally use a lag switch. Server lag is just that. People accept it and move on.

[Teeny]

You two are living in a ideal world where the things you say will never happen. Identifying a genuine lag cast and being fair by dropping your combo is near impossible in a high speed match. Not to mention it interferes with your skill casts.

The Lag casts you talk about happen randomly due to the poor netcode written by the devs. This was highlighted by the older generation of pvp players and till date nothing has been fixed nor will it ever be. Thats why serious pvpers quit.

I'd say let the newer players enjoy the game as it given to them instead of trying to enforce community written laws to make the game "Better".
Be mature about a lag cast instead of being an prick about it to the player. If you can't handle a lag casting player just leave the room.
Lag casters however are an issue during tournaments, Classes that cannot afford to drop a combo are a significant disadvantage vs a lag caster.

Pushing for a "Acceptable Ping" setting would be a better endeavor than trying to make players go,,
"Hey I saw you lag out of my combo! stay still till i get a 40k attack on you"
or
"uh-oh I saw myself lag out of his combo, let me stay still till he gets a 40k attack on me. that will make me feel good."

[Kuru]

I think you failed to read, because, it was actually specifically mentioned in my comment. But let me make it a bit more clear.

No, I'm not saying "let them get a free 40k"

And the fact that you used 40k as an example shows that you read it but failed to put two and two together.


It's about having simple respect, let them auto stand or let them lift you again. As you said, "Be mature" about it and handle each situation as it needs to be handled.


And letting the new players enjoy the game is fine, but if they want to pvp and aren't given any guidance on what is sportsmanship in DN PvP, then we end up with the way the community currently is. Everyone spamming skills off cooldown, running laps around the map and overall being disrespectful to others in the community.

But back ontop topic, you mention the "Acceptable ping" setting which, again, would utterly ruin DN PvP as you'd NEVER find a fight with someone who says "Yea, let the guy with 200 ms join" and trust me, a fairly high number of people within SEA have 200ms. You're creating a barrier for the players of the game for no reason apart from "why not".

Going around with the nihilistic mindset of "Nothing will ever be fixed" is what leads to nothing being fixed. We have already seen that one of the Devs is interested in pushing out more updates for PvP (Apparently) so we should use this chance to help the PvP of this game. Whether you want to or not is your choice but if you don't try, nothing will be changed and you'll simply be a bystander through it all, your choice.

[Teeny]

Kuru, lets be real, Siera says use a low dmg/low utility skill to relaunch the opponent, while the opponent stays still to get re lifted. In a real PvP match, do you expect players to be so courteous when something happens in a split second? These things happen due to the game's failings. Having the community try to fix it by making rules will not only interfere with a player's natural learning curve but will also make the community toxic by making them adhere to this mindset and outcasting players that do not.
Speaking from the majority's prespective, the 40k scenario WILL happen due to how (99%) of the community is (heck with how it is currently, people will gang up and demand you get hit for that matter) or it will interrupt the match and make it into a finger pointing scenario.
Mosa mentioned to "I’d be fair on this point, if you catch the same opponent and he lags out without stopping, well then fuck him back obviously." This is what happens in the majority of the matches. you might be the goody goody guy, but the majority of the community won't.

Instead, give the developers insights into the failings. Make them aware of the netcode issues. Make them develop things that can actually improve the experience for higher forms of PvP where laggers/lag abusers SHOULD NOT exist (Tournaments)

Seriously, nobody likes to fight vs a Lagging ripper or a Lagging gearmaster/Adept/windwalker/barb/saint or any of the 1rotation no brainer classes that you absolutely cannot afford for them to get away from your lock.

I still advocate for the "Acceptable Ping setting"....atleast in Tournaments.That one developer you talk about would be better off developing this. Optimizing the netcode will be challenging but it can be done. Tournaments is one place where player lag/Lag abusers should not exist. Just look at the recent tournaments that was done by eye/cc or even you for that matter.

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To summarize, Community written/enforced rules never work for the majority. Instead make developers aware of game's failings and provide suggestions from the development standpoint.

[SoulcrackD]

What is "Lag Abuse" Well, certain people could probably use a "Lag Switch" if modified to that extend they can make you lag or himself with a hotkey attached to it, this usually happens in online games like CoD, battlefield etc. i don't think the people in dragon nest are that smart to figure that out. considering the amount of people are low IQ based w3ws the whole time. lol.