My thoughts about economy and MP (discussion)

[Owl]

Bear with me because I know a lot of people will disagree about the economy but hey, I'm bored.
So I've been watching a bunch of RS videos (idk why, don't ask) and I think our market place could take some lessons from the RS's version.

My thoughts on our MP
Firstly, RS MP lacks listing fees or any fees from selling items (that I'm aware of, don't quote me please). In my opinion, this isn’t a biggie, it's only frustrating when an item with a high sell price doesn’t actually sell (>=1.5k let’s say). However, I do think listing fees are pointless as it’s an unnecessary gold drain. You could make an argument that it restricts the number of junk on MP, however, each player is limited in the number of listings at one time and per week.

Secondly, RS MP is MUCH more dynamic than ours. Their MP allows them to list a number of items for a certain cost. People can buy however many items they wish to purchase and this can be withdrawn by the buyer (Listed 50 garnets, someone buys 30 of them, buyer can collect the gold but still sell the remaining 20). This is great because often the game/players forces you to buy too much of an item or force you to buy more expensive versions of the same item just to get the amount you need. It’s not very consumer friendly.

Thirdly, this MP allows you to essentially “wait” until someone lists an item for the price that you want to buy it at. You’re able to specify how much gold that you want to buy an item for and how many you need and this “offer” will stay on the MP and instantly buy an item that fits the requirements (refunding excess gold if someone sells for cheaper).
In summary I think our MP is trash. It forces players to ACTIVELY compete with each other to sell their items. I understand that people undercut for quick sells but with our restrictions on MP it doesn’t make not undercutting viable in the slightest. I believe these features would greatly improve our economy. Feel free to agree or disagree.

TL DR, our MP bad compared to other games (functionally).

[Owl]

My thoughts on our economy

Our economy is fine as it is. It is completely viable for low level players to generate gold and get better gear through selling of mats and other drops from running content. Back in previous caps where the endgame content was actually difficult, there were no other methods of getting cap gear without crafting it from those nest drops or from running the nest. Nowadays you can simply run 93 dungeons and get theano, gem drops and stamps that can then be sold for profit. There’s almost no requirement for running difficult endgame content to gear yourself. Using the MP to sell and buy things should be enough to get people going.

The only reason that the economy could “possibly” be crap is the issue regarding Lgrades. Getting a single RDNL +12 costs anywhere between 20-50k and IDNL is even more. Our economy isn’t built so that this gear is easy to get. People but in HOURS worth of time and effort just to get enough gold to get the best gear in the game and it’s not fair that people who bought runs for 500g are complaining about RDNL prices. Go hard or go home. If you want +12 RDNL, don’t complain about the economy, put effort into grinding out that gold, whether it be though apple farming, jelly selling or nesting. Yes, I understand that some people play this game like a full time job and a lot of people don’t have the time to play the game to get this gear. I believe that is THE ENTIRE POINT. If the game only took 2hrs a day for a couple weeks to get full RDNL +12 then all of the players would have this gear. It’s top tier gear for a reason.

Another thing that I realised while watching RS vids (I have no life, pls), their currency is gold. Just gold. This made me think about why we even have silver and copper. No one sells items on MP for silver or copper (unless to make their item look cheaper by 1 copper). Only a handful of NPCs sell items for silver or copper and better yet, those items are relatively useless (HP/MP potions). Why is this even a thing? We could remove this and just have gold and no one would be the wiser.

TL DR, I think our economy is fine, see image below

[Illusie]

Owls scare me D;!

[Owl]

Whoooooooo~

[ILLbeURdeath]

First part, the structure of our MP does suck, enough said.

Second part, for the most part our economy is "ok" but very fragile and easily susceptible to "underhanded business practices"...

When we get the 93 (hopefully repeatable) bot quests, that with what we have currently imho - we'll be just fine then

(it would be nice if they got rid of most fees in this game but I don't see that happening, maybe they ditch the SS fee of 5 gold per when and if we're ever able to trade cash shop items ect)

[Demo]

I can tell you don't have lgrades... lol

[Azunyan]

Rekt is the right word...Indeed

[Demo]

So you have 7set rdnL and got the gold to enhance it from splits from clearing? Either you were one of the first few teams to clear or that's not how you got the gold.

[Owl]

No, I got the gold from running endgame content (nests etc). We only started clearing RDN HC when the cost of runs started to drop at 90 cap. the enhance is only +10 on wpns and +8 on the armours so nothing fancy.

[CiRRAV]

You guys do realize L grade are not end game gear right? They have never been end game gear. They are end cap gear. In other words, it's not supposed to take you a year to get it under the basis that you clear norm and hc

[Owl]

Well as with RDNL's, they are far better than the level 90 equips that we had to work with, same goes for Lgrades in previous caps. It seems like they stay relevant for over a single cap and therefore shouldn't be able to get in a single run. I think the way it is now it's fair. It takes a few weeks to get a single weapon or armour piece (could be worse if we still had RNG drops and then had to roll for them). Why the time you have enough mats to build something, you probably made enough gold from the team runs to afford to enhance it. At least that's how I see it.
The game wouldn't be rewarding if it were easy.

[Demo]

I used to think this too, then I got lgrades and realized the drops you get from clearing are worthless and won't pay for enhancing. And with idnL it's even worse. There's no way in hell are you gonna get 210k from SPLITTING the gold you get from clearing. Sell runs aren't too bad once you can start to duo/trio the raid but at this point almost no one could afford to buy idn runs anyways. It's a lot harder than you think to get gold for lgrades, specially if you don't apple farm. Owl xd

[ILLbeURdeath]

I don't Apple farm and I made a lot of gold in 90 cap. Like owl said, farm mats and sell them. Have an army of mercenaries, make a lot of gold of that. Apple farm too if you want, do old 8 town when you're out of power to get gold until 93 bot quests are here. There are many a way to make gold, do quests on all of your characters, that's thousands per. Effort = production

[CiRRAV]

I said in less than a year, not a single run. Owl, My team was first clear Norm and HC for idn, my total splits only add up to about 38k gold now. Compared to other raids, it has decreased by about 40k. Seems like a lot huh? I've been able to craft IDN L weps for about two weeks now. Too bad to get ANY IDN L item to +10-12 is stupid luck with just 38k gold. Now of course im supposed to make gold outside of raiding. I dont have nor will I make 200 alts for apples and the gold I've made else where consists of less than 10k. Sure you can say I dont put a lot of effort, but when compared to my FD team mates, they themselves are going out to an extent to make gold in crazy ways. I've gone for L grades every single cap since 40. This cap though, I am just saving gold for the next L grades.

[Owl]

You've made 38k from IDN and you're complaining that making gold is hard. Like reaper said before, if you want to enhance them, save your gold. If you can already clear the hardest content in the game (congrats btw :P), I don't see the rush to get +10-12 IDNL. Just save your gold that you're making and it seems like you'll soon be able to afford one (Thats almost 2 enhancement transfers, which is 2 +10 IDNL if you have +12 RDNL currently)

[ILLbeURdeath]

You're honestly wasting your time, some people have just gotten used to doing one thing, raid, and they still expect it to finance that which they want done. They don't want to do anything more, for reasons we need not get into. There's more owl but I think you know already...

[ceruulean]

it took me around 1.5k gold to get a +7 mutated gem
then I broke it to +8
thats just raw gold fee with golden goose, AND your guild has to give out a lot of sealed gem fragments from pouches.

for now I just have a +6 but dang those things are huge sinks. Buying the gem itself is rng and bad luck can cost 1k just to get the right stat

not to mention the +15gem enhancement combined is like the cost of another lgrade in terms of jellies and mats; 70-80 cap just had to make quality gems and you were done, maybe aim for 3rd stat but gems were not as time consuming to make as they are now, and even now +12 gems sell for equal or less than qualities did in their respective caps even though they take more effort to make LOOOOL

the only saving grace of the current gem system (besides the guild gem) is that your stats are guaranteed so no need to gamble for 3rd stats just pop a shitton of mats and you get fd

Idn unique crafting has rng stats instead of a set bonus so gg idn uniques are near useless compared to evo coma

paying for guild buffs sucks

well even then I can still manage to make gold but the cost of idnl is pretty stupid and the stat increases aren't even that good to justify the cost. I know paladins lose hp if they go from rdnl to idnl, and sure saders will gain dmg from the equalized int:str but it goes to show how it may not be worth upgrading for some ppl

the game has gotten grinder and you get less money that's how stupid it is

even back in the days of rng spark there was more gold

[milktoast22]

Of course there are ways to make gold, but compared to a lot of other caps your time investment to reward ratio is WAY worse now. Sure it's not supposed to be "EASY", but right now most of the content doesn't feel rewarding for the amount of time you put in and lots of things depend too much on luck. That's not enjoyable.

It's not only about L-grades too. The average population is poor. Lots of mats have deflated heavily and they just continue to deflate. When your only way to get stronger is heavily dependent on luck it completely blows tbh. Yeah let me sell all these trash mats I spent tens of hours farming just to have a CHANCE to upgrade my weapon.

People are just gonna quit if there's no good sense of progression or if their hard work isn't rewarded appropriately. That's a big problem with DN right now.

Why do you think the Party Finder has been largely dead even at peak hours? There was a big average players online spike after the update in October but then it dropped down again heavily to terrible pre-transfer levels.


People who think it should stay the way it is or that it's fine should think about why this game isn't more popular or why it has trouble retaining players after an update. It's completely delusional to think that it's fine the way it is now.

[Owl]

I never really notice the party finder because of my timezone. Idk when peak hours are xD

[Lemon]

pretty much more braindead and more grindy

starting out is pretty easy but then you get blocked from getting better gear pretty early on imo

[Owl]

So if everything was just as easy to get (e.g. drop rates were the same, 3rd chances are the same etc) except the amount of gold dropped in a dungeon is increased by say a factor of 10 and repair cost was reduced by the same amount. I my mind this would only affect the static fees that we have to pay (enhancing, dismantling etc). All of the items in MP would scale to the new amount of gold in the game. People who spent hours and hard work grinding to get large amounts of gold have that diminished overnight. Almost can afford that tech ring you've been saving for? Well gg now its way more expensive.
I don't see this as a fix to what we have atm. If we got that I feel like people would start complaining that everything is too expensive on MP and we don't earn enough gold for to buy them.
Granted this would help lgrade users immensely.

[ILLbeURdeath]

So if everything was just as easy to get (e.g. drop rates were the same, 3rd chances are the same etc) except the amount of gold dropped in a dungeon is increased by say a factor of 10 and repair cost was reduced by the same amount. this would help lgrade users immensely.

Boom, I'm sure a lot of the people complaining they don't have/make enough gold are those that got their L's too easily/early and they don't/never had the means to enhance them to be useful. But this could also would help vets and allow them to save even more for the next etc if fees were reduced and dropped gold increased. The people complaining about the cost of IDNL's, most of which can already clear our unnerfed 8 man idn don't really need them now do they?

I still say when we get 93 repeatable bot quests, we'll be just fine, effort will equate to progression which imo is what it should be and money only used to speed up the process, for that luxury otherwise get to work :P.

[Demo]

But don't you think it's stupid that you can "get the gear too early"? If you can clear the raid you should be able to use the gear it gives you. It's stupid that our server is the only one where people farm apples to get enough gold to enhance lgrades. Also "The people complaining about the cost of IDNL's, most of which can already clear our unnerfed 8 man idn don't really need them now do they?" This is so wrong. What's the point of gearing up if you can clear rdn hc in belin? To make it easier/faster, gearing up is also for the progression of your character. If a game doesn't let you reach your max potential because "you don't need it" WHY PLAY IT? THE POINT OF RPGS IS PROGRESSING AND GETTING STRONGER.

[ILLbeURdeath]

There's no use complaining about it, people have idnL's and some have even enhanced them. There are people in full +12 rdnL's too, quite a bit of people actually. The point is, there are ways of making gold to get to what you desire, I made somewhere around 500k through the whole cap that was 90. Did it doing merc missions and running content(nests/raids)/dailies and crafting ofc. There are ways to make the necessary gold needed to have stupid OP gear, some need a lot of gold to do so, some not as much. Yes, it sucks depending on rng for gear and all that but you know what, suck it up or quit playing, we all have too. If you got the gear yourself and didn't buy runs, you should have the knowledge and know how on gathering gold. But yes, it is harder to grind for the gold then it is to earn the L's...that is true. Maybe 93 raid will be stupid hard but let us also remember iirc no one beat rdn hc in 80 cap, they made it too hard. I don't think any server was also able to clear idn in 90 cap as well, took 93 cap's awakenings etc right? Old DDN HC was hard, it would be nice if all the other raids were this hard but who knows, maybe the 93 raid will be even harder than old DDN HC was. And finally yes, content has gotten annoyingly easier. I died practicing 4 man hc idn but now, I only die to failed dps checks/party wipes. We don't have enough content, they need to bring back memoria's and such and other 6 man nests for in between(nest to raid) and/or more "challenging" content, that would be nice .

The devs did say 93 cap was meant for the vets, class balancing, skill changes, harder content - lets give em some more time, maybe just maybe the end of 93 cap brings in a lot of harder content, the hopeful meat of 93 cap.

[ceruulean]

The reason why we're complaining is because the static fees are way too high

In real life if a firm sets its price too high nobody buys and they won't make money. They have to lower price so people buy or shutdown as operation cost surpasses revenue. NPCs don't have operation costs so they are above the laws of economics.

Either static costs need to go down, or gold generation needs to go up. During the Great Depresssion, there were people who continued living normal lives and weren't really affected. Does that mean the Great Depression was just some lazy people complaining about how hard it was to survive? Or maybe, for a large majority of people, they really did have trouble making a living?

While it may be a game, any game that's too different from real life sensibilities repulses players. A sick economy without timely adjustments will drive people away as it becomes more of a chore to play.

[ILLbeURdeath]

Every MMO is a chore to progress through , then when you reach that end point, it's much easier due to the snowball rolling down a hill effect.

I will agree, devs should be making constant changes like other MMO's do, class changes/skill changes/economy changes constantly but that's not the case with this game, never has been when compared to others.

Fees are high, I agree, nothing to do about it. All I'm saying is there comes a time when you just need to grit your teeth and bare with it, otherwise vote with your dollars and stop supporting and/or playing the game. Everyone here does have a choice, if you don't like where the game is headed/is heading/has headed towards then simply find another game. I've had to do that a few times, it happens, change happens. Change for good and for bad, it's all a matter of perspective really.

It's true, this game is very different from what it was a couple of years ago plus. But REO Speedwagon coined in one of their songs, "Gotta roll with the changes" .

I do hope the devs actually read these posts/threads for I think more ways to generate gold need to be addressed (and not introduce more ways to sit and do nothing to earn gold :P) but that's never actually worked. Patience, we all need more patience. Gold generation was very good when I first came to this game due to repeatable quests, tons of nests to do etc. They took a lot of that out and introduced a few more ways of making gold (like merc missions) and we just have to be patient for them to bring back some of the rest of the gold generating methods like repeatable bot quests. Who knows why the devs decided to do this, maybe to force people to buy jellies to sell on the MP, idk, shear laziness on the devs part? idk.

Just remember to breath and try to relax (better to stay positive then to let negativity rule your life )

[Owl]

^ This

[milktoast22]

Boom, I'm sure a lot of the people complaining they don't have/make enough gold are those that got their L's too easily/early and they don't/never had the means to enhance them to be useful. But this could also would help vets and allow them to save even more for the next etc if fees were reduced and dropped gold increased. The people complaining about the cost of IDNL's, most of which can already clear our unnerfed 8 man idn don't really need them now do they?

I still say when we get 93 repeatable bot quests, we'll be just fine, effort will equate to progression which imo is what it should be and money only used to speed up the process, for that luxury otherwise get to work :P.

those quests are not unlimited so it will only be temporary.

[milktoast22]

http://forum.cherrycredits.com/topic.../#entry2941285

Daily quest part of the post they say the quests are not unlimited.

[Owl]

S> Pitchforks, 1k each

[BowieSage]

Knew it. I was hoping I would be wrong, but considering the 90 6s quests weren't repeatable, I had a strong feeling that the 93 ones wouldn't be, either. Guess it's back to the drawing board and 3s quests/93 Abyss.

[CraZyZeuS]

So if everything was just as easy to get (e.g. drop rates were the same, 3rd chances are the same etc) except the amount of gold dropped in a dungeon is increased by say a factor of 10 and repair cost was reduced by the same amount. I my mind this would only affect the static fees that we have to pay (enhancing, dismantling etc). All of the items in MP would scale to the new amount of gold in the game. People who spent hours and hard work grinding to get large amounts of gold have that diminished overnight. Almost can afford that tech ring you've been saving for? Well gg now its way more expensive.
I don't see this as a fix to what we have atm. If we got that I feel like people would start complaining that everything is too expensive on MP and we don't earn enough gold for to buy them.
Granted this would help lgrade users immensely.

I have to disagree with your assessment.

New players or casual players will appreciate an injection of gold simply because they will be rewarded for playing the game. Selling items for higher prices in the MP will allow them to obtain gold to purchase other items that will have its rate adjusted as well. Things become more expensive, but you are also wealthier if that makes sense to you.

The only difference with a wealthier economy is that everyone will be able to afford L-Grades and this is a healthier situation for the game. Think of middle class citizens that want to be able to obtain wealth and purchase things wealthy people do too.

Rich players will afford L-Grades regardless of the economy so this isn't even about them.

If people are paying to win already, you're not going to beat them. So why not inject more gold into the economy so that even casuals can have access to said desired items?

Think of players that visit TDN/Private Servers. They enjoy playing there because they can earn gold for playing the game and being able to not stress over economic issues such as L-Grades.

[Owl]

If you're saying that we need an injection because of Lgrade costs, yea fine, its pretty over priced compared to the rest of the economy. This would also degrade the experience for a lot of top tier players as well because their previous earnings and gear would become much less valuable than they currently are. It'd be like EU all over again, when people start complaining that it costs too much to +13 their +12 RDNL..
But no, that does not make sense about gear being more expensive yet more wealthy. Yes you have higher gold but everything costs more. You'd grow to accept that even though you have lost respective to the cap, you'd still be poor with respect to the new economy.