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  • [Mini Guide] Understanding gear and damage calculation

    Hi all. I’m Xenocho also known as Remmystarr from Eden. The reason this post is made was due to streams of questions in the forum and Discord regarding calculations. As I am quite experienced in calculations on stats, I thought I would write this mini guide to elucidate and perhaps provide an understanding to questions involving gear calculation and also balancing of stats on jades.

    Terminology clarification
    - The first thing I must clarify is the terminology of gear. I will be mentioning ‘gear’ a lot in this write-up and hence I should make it clear:
    - Gears are items which are part of the equipment worn by the character, which is shown in the character info tab (default key: P); this includes armors, weapons, accessories, origins, all cash equipment including engravings, mount, heraldries and talismans.
    - This explanation is the same when it comes to stats as well.

    Understanding
    1. What is the ATK shown in the stat window?
    Using this example, there are 3 parts when you mouse-over the attack section (this also applies to the stats info window):

    1. White number: attack derived from the main stat of the character
    In terms of calculation, the white stat value is simply obtained by looking at the total stats and calculating. For the engineer, AGI is the main stat and the conversion is 0.75 ATK per AGI.
    This gives: 12,676 * 0.75 = 9,507

    In addition, STR is a sub stat and the conversion is 0.25 ATK per STR.
    This gives: 4,819 * 0.25 = 1204.75

    In total, 9,507 + 1,204 = 10,711 ATK
    1. Green number: attack contributed by gear
    When we describe the ATK contributed by gear in the green value, they are actually a total of the ATK values, as well as the % increment as well. The example is as shown below:

    Let’s call the total ATK from gear as A and the % values as B.
    A = Neris Cannon + Threaded Loop + Jade + Heraldry + Cash Equipment + Hero Level
    A = 32,728 + 2,187 + 519 + 12,896 + 100 + 4340
    A = 52,770

    B = Jade + Title + Cash Equipment
    B = 4% + 6% + 1.7%
    B = 11.7%

    Green value = A + (A + White)*B
    Green value = 52,770 + (52,770 + 10,711)*11.7%
    Green value = 52,770+ 7,427.277
    Green value = 60,197 ATK
    1. Blue number: attack contributed by skill ATK %
    The blue value is actually the calculation of damage from skill based ATK % increments. These include Rock of Blessing (10%), Class Masteries (varies), Breaking Point (10%) and so forth. These increments are calculated based on the green and white values, which are both contributed by gear.

    In our example, the character is a gear master. Hence, its class mastery is 5% ATK increment of the green and white values. Hence:

    Blue value = (White value + Green value) * ATK %
    Blue value = (10,711 + 60,197) * 5%
    Blue value = 70,908 * 5%
    Blue value = 3,545.4 ATK

    Because this calculation is multiplied using the final values of the gear ATK, we do not include it in our gear ATK calculations. In a way, the ATK % can also be viewed as a form of multiplier.

    Also, take note that this blue value has a limit of 100% of gear. This means that class with high ATK % from passives and class masteries need to be aware that further ATK % buffs will have high diminishing returns or even hitting the 100% cap. Refer to the picture below for evidence (credits to myon for highlighting this again).


    2. Effective attack
    a. As you know, there are many other parameters or stats which you can push. These are Critical, Critical Damage, Elemental Attack and Final Damage.
    Critical is the chance of dealing double damage or higher, which is increased by raising the AGI or the critical stat directly. Without the influence of critical damage, critical hits deal 2x of non-critical hits. Critical is capped at 89%.

    Critical damage is a stat which further increases the damage output of critical hits by up to 100%. This results in the maximum damage of a critical hit to deal 3x of non-critical hits. Critical damage is increased either by STR or INT stats, or by raising the critical damage stat directly. Unlike other calculations, critical damage has no 1 + CDMG formula due to its value shown in the stat window already being formatted for calculation.

    Elemental attack is a stat which increases your damage output for that respective element. Currently, due to the availability of ECJs, any class can deal elemental damage and hence, this stat becomes useful for damage boosting. Although elemental attack is derived from both gears and skills, they are added together during calculations. Currently, there is no limit for elemental attack for both gears and skills.

    Final damage is a stat which increases your damage output. This stat is highly valued due to being a different multiplier which can be used to boost damage output. For each cap, there is a certain amount of FD which a character can stack before they hit a limit of 100%. This limit is specifically for gear FD. FD can also be sourced from skills such as Erratic Power or skill heraldries, such as damage plates, which add 20% FD for that particular skill. Ultimately, the total FD is added up and can exceed 100%.


    b. Due to the nature of calculation, where these parameters act as multipliers, they are calculated separately and the order of which is calculated first does not matter. Also, 1 = 100%, 0.1 = 10% in calculations; they are the same thing.
    - The full formula is as shown:
    ATK * (1 + FD) * (1 + Ele %) * [CDMG * CritChance + (1 – CritChance%)]
    - Hence, the E-ATK of a character with 100,000 ATK with 10% FD and 5% Ele is calculated as follows:
    E-ATK = 100,000 * (1 + 0.1) * (1 + 0.05)
    E-ATK = 100,000 * 1.1 * 1.05
    E-ATK = 115,500
    - Understanding how these calculations work is important for understanding damage optimization in later sections.

    c. CDMG calculation is slightly different, due to the nature of CDMG heavily reliant on critical chance. As a result, having a low critical chance significantly reduces the impact of critical damage.
    - These examples are as shown below using the formula [CDMG * CritChance + (1 – CritChance%)]:
    Remmy has a CDMG of 300% and CritChance of 50%, while Aethriel has a CDMG of 210% and a CritChance of 89%.
    Remmy E-ATK = 3*0.5 + (1-0.5)
    Remmy E-ATK = 1.5 + 0.5
    Remmy E-ATK = 2.0
    Aethriel E-ATK = 2.1 * 0.89 + (1 - 0.89)
    Aethriel E-ATK = 1.869 + 0.11
    Aethriel E-ATK = 1.979
    - Hence, as you can see, although Remmy had cap crit damage, the actual multiplier ends up to be very close to Aethriel’s basic crit damage. This was due to the influence of critical, which plays a huge role.

    d. As we can calculate the E-ATK of different setup and gears, we can also calculate to identify which has a better output.
    - This difference can be expressed in terms of percentage (%) as shown below:
    Remmy’s E-ATK is 240,000, while Aethriel’s E-ATK is 200,000.
    Percentage difference = (Remmy’s E-ATK / Aethriel’s E-ATK) - 1
    Percentage difference = (240,000 / 200,000) -1
    Percentage difference = 1.2 – 1
    Percentage difference = 0.2 or 20%
    - Hence, Remmy’s E-ATK is 20% higher than Aethriel’s.


    3. Law of diminishing return
    a. What is it?
    Based on Wikipedia, diminishing returns is stated as the decrease in the marginal (incremental) output of a production process as the amount of a single factor of production is incrementally increased, while the amounts of all other factors of production stay constant.

    A layman term which I used to explain this is as follows:
    In analogy:
    Case 1: you have 2 apples, you get 1 apple.
    Case 2: you have 10 apples, you get 1 apple.
    In case 1, you get 1 apple to make 3 apples. 3 apples versus 2 apples is a 50% increment from adding 1 apple.
    In case 2, you get 1 apple to make 11 apples. 11 apples versus 10 apples is only a 10% increment from adding 1 apple.
    In both cases, you add the same amount of apples but the "gain" in case 1 is higher because you have less apples in the first place.
    .
    b. How does this apply to DN?
    - In DN, the same can be said when adding stats onto already high stats. For example, when you add 20% FD onto a character with 100% FD, the calculation is as follows:

    FD Increment = [New FD / Old FD] - 1
    FD Increment = [(20 + 200)/ (200)] - 1
    FD Increment = 10%, which is half of the initial 20% added.
    - In comparison, adding 20% FD onto a character with 10% FD, the calculation is as follows:

    FD Increment = [New FD / Old FD] - 1
    FD Increment = [(20 + 110)/(110)] -1
    FD Increment = 18%, which is relatively close to the initial 20% added.
    - While the 100% FD example shows high diminishing returns, it is not true to say that diminishing returns occurs only at cap FD values. In fact, not obtaining the full 20% is already a sign that diminishing returns is already present. Hence, diminishing returns always occurs in calculations. The effect simply becomes more obvious with higher stat values.
    Last edited by Xenocho; 03-14-2018, 05:46 AM.
    Remmystarr from Eden (Discord: Xenocho #8012)
    Please try to read my guide before asking questions on gear optimisation here;
    Old and outdated Engineer guide here; Selling FDN service for FDN weaps (Read here!);

  • #2
    Application
    After the long post above explaining details of stats and calculations, we now move on to the applications. In this section, I will be showing examples which compare situations where adjusting certain gears will lead to better results. This may not necessarily be an upgrade but rather an improvement via future planning. For the time being, this section may be slightly short due to general lack of ideas of what may be important. I am open to ideas to add on to this section, which is of course, for the benefit of the audience.
    1. Choice of elemental jades vs attack jades for elemental characters
    - Problem statement: With the presence of equal stat % for both attack and elemental attack on Lv 95 jades, which jade should I go for?
    .
    - General answer: USUALLY, for ECJ classes, using elemental jade is usually better while for non ECJ classes, using attack jades are better.
    .
    - Explanation: Let’s look at the examples shown below, which are Adepts with equal gear, apart from the 4 attack jades used. The main difference between both Adepts will be using 4 Ice ATK % jades vs 3 Magic ATK % jades and 1 Ice ATK % jade. As Adepts do not have Ice ATK % contributions from skills, these will be the final Ice ATK %.
    .

    (Click to view the setup)
    Total ATK % from gears = Title + Cold Judgement Seal * 2 + Magic Heraldry + Cash Equipment
    Total ATK % from gears = 7% + 5% * 2 + 10% + 19%
    Total ATK % from gears = 46%
    Total Ele % = 92%
    .
    (1 + ATK %) * (1 + Ele %) = 1.46 * 1.92
    (1 + ATK %) * (1 + Ele %) = 2.8032
    .
    Adept Ele Jade E-ATK = 714,190 * (1 + 0.92)
    Adept Ele Jade E-ATK = 1,371,244.8

    .

    (Click to view the setup)
    Total ATK % from gears = Title + Cold Judgement Seal * 2 + Magic Heraldry + Cash Equipment + Magic ATK % Jades * 3
    Total ATK % from gears = 7% + 5% * 2 + 10% + 19% + 8.5% * 3
    Total ATK % from gears = 71.5%
    Total Ele % = 66.5%
    .
    (1 + ATK %) * (1 + Ele %) = 1.715 * 1.665
    (1 + ATK %) * (1 + Ele %) = 2.855475
    .
    Adept MATK Jade E-ATK = 838,929 * (1 + 0.665)
    Adept MATK Jade E-ATK = 1,396,816.785
    .
    - Comparison between both
    If you compare both of the above, you can see that the Adept with MATK jades has slightly higher E-ATK versus the Adept with Ele jades. This difference can be shown simply from these two equations:

    .
    If you compare both, we find that the Adept with MATK jades is 1.865% stronger than the Adept with Ele jades. This is because the product between both percentages was higher, and this is because both values were balanced.
    .
    The explanation for this can be made rather simple using geometry:
    Let’s assume that the Ele ATK and Magic ATK are two sides of a rectangle. When we multiply these two together, we get the total area of the rectangle as shown by the formula below. In addition, another key assumption in doing this comparison is that the total values, Ele ATK and Magic ATK is always the same; in other words, 4 jades % will always be 8.5% * 4 = 34%. This is only possible in 95 cap, as before 95 cap, ATK % jades have lower values compared to Ele ATK % jades.
    .

    .
    Now, let’s compare the case of 40% Ele ATK + 10% Magic ATK vs 25% Ele ATK + 25% Magic ATK:
    .

    .
    Here, we can see that the 25% Ele ATK + 25% Magic ATK has a larger area. Hence, this shows that balancing between both of these stats would result in the highest output; however, the difference would usually not be this big.
    .
    - How does this work? What does this tell us?
    If we compare the final E-ATK values of both, we find that we will also get the same result: Adept with MATK jades is 1.865% stronger than the Adept with Ele jades. This actually shows that doing the comparison between the ATK % and Ele % eventually yields the same result as the final E-ATK value, which then includes the ATK shown in the stat window. This is not very surprising actually, if we take into consideration the whole-picture view of stat calculation:
    .
    Remember that green numbers come from the white numbers and gear ATK values? To refresh, from the points above:
    Gear Stats = Green Number + White Number
    .
    Green Number = Gear ATK + (White Number + Gear ATK) * (Gear ATK %)
    .
    Gear Stats = White Number + Gear ATK + (White Number + Gear ATK) * (Gear ATK %)
    .
    In essence, the calculation of Gear ATK % in the above then becomes (1 + Gear ATK %) using the White Number and Gear ATK as the base values. In other words, Gear ATK % becomes another multiplier based on the total amount of raw ATK from stats and also gears. As Gear ATK % functions identical to other multipliers, it can then be used to balance with Ele ATK %. The choice to balance these two multipliers simply stems from the general idea that these two can be modified easily, such as changing titles and jades, and hence, players have a greater control for these two multipliers.
    .
    (Credits to zArAthena for the discussion and explanations on this section)
    Last edited by Xenocho; 03-11-2018, 09:18 AM.
    Remmystarr from Eden (Discord: Xenocho #8012)
    Please try to read my guide before asking questions on gear optimisation here;
    Old and outdated Engineer guide here; Selling FDN service for FDN weaps (Read here!);

    Comment


    • #3
      Useful Links/Tools
      For the tentatively final section, I will present one of the most useful tool/link in Dragon Nest: dngearsim (click me!) and the Divinator stat card, which is sorta intergrated into dngearsim.

      Feel free to ask questions if the pictures are not clear.


      Last edited by Xenocho; 03-11-2018, 10:04 AM.
      Remmystarr from Eden (Discord: Xenocho #8012)
      Please try to read my guide before asking questions on gear optimisation here;
      Old and outdated Engineer guide here; Selling FDN service for FDN weaps (Read here!);

      Comment


      • #4
        Credits to zArAthena, Seraphimu and others whom have supported me whenever I am looking to discuss matters related to these.
        Last edited by Xenocho; 03-11-2018, 10:07 AM.
        Remmystarr from Eden (Discord: Xenocho #8012)
        Please try to read my guide before asking questions on gear optimisation here;
        Old and outdated Engineer guide here; Selling FDN service for FDN weaps (Read here!);

        Comment


        • #5
          This is one of the best informative guidelines I ever red. (aside from LODR from nvLite & other stuffs including BlazingSkies topics around forums)
          Thanks for sharing this ~ Now I can help my other members by linking this to them so this will be their guide while growing further in this game.
          Have a nice day!
          Click image for larger version

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          Always look straight to your goals, conquer them all and have fun.


          Comment


          • #6
            The guide is updated. This will most likely be final unless there are request for certain details or improvement. Thank you and have a good day.
            Remmystarr from Eden (Discord: Xenocho #8012)
            Please try to read my guide before asking questions on gear optimisation here;
            Old and outdated Engineer guide here; Selling FDN service for FDN weaps (Read here!);

            Comment


            • #7
              As a Dark Summoner and Soul eater mains i find this very timely for me as im torn between using unique attack 8.5% mttack jades versus 8.50% elem jades. Gearing up with poor knowledge of what to prioritize would be a devastation and waste of Gold. Thanks for the effort and dedication of these Godlike players making guides and helping us understand the game well. Keep up the good work! +20!
              Last edited by MK-ULTRA; 03-14-2018, 02:28 AM. Reason: Grammar lol

              Comment


              • #8
                Hello, Remmy
                I got a question .. what's the basis for attack cap on nests?
                I have been wondering .. since even tho i got max 475k attack at town .. the max attack cap i get is only around 820k and it won't go up
                ~ Hurri can DANCE ~

                Comment


                • Xenocho
                  Xenocho commented
                  Editing a comment
                  What do you mean by 'it won't go up?' Can you share an example for me to look at?

                  Useful information will be class and situation, whether nest or raid.

                • myon
                  myon commented
                  Editing a comment
                  I am talking about getting a 30% cheese, then taking another 100% cheese
                  The attack was already capped at on or below 30% cheese
                  Something like that ..

                • Xenocho
                  Xenocho commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Oh, because you can only have 1 type of each food item buff. If you eat 30% cheese and then eat 15% milk, you will find that the 15% milk replaces the 30% cheese effect.

                  Does this answer your question?

              • #9
                Oh, god .. this forum is giving me headaches ..

                Here's an example.. and this honestly has been bugging me.

                Click image for larger version

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                From the pic above, after activating my Class Mastery which gives 50% attack buff, max attack became 835,387
                Now, as you can see, there's a 30% cheese
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                After picking up the 30% cheese, my max attack became 930,794
                Notice that my max magic attack is 296,953
                And you can see there's a 50% cheese
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                After picking the 50% cheese, my physical attack remained the same where as my magic attack increased.

                I know that there's a cap buff on nests
                As to what's the basis of it, that's what I wanna know

                I wanna know if activated CM like mine (tempest) counts towards buff cap while other classes that got a CM that passively increases attack not included.
                Thanks, xeno


                Attached Files
                ~ Hurri can DANCE ~

                Comment


                • Xenocho
                  Xenocho commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Could you share a screenshot which mouse over the stats? This is rather interesting. You might be right that the limit is 100%, but I would like to see the screenshot for confirmation.

                • Xenocho
                  Xenocho commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Okay I kinda got the answer. Yes it appears there is a cap to the amount of ATK % from skills.

                • Xenocho
                  Xenocho commented
                  Editing a comment
                  I will post this here since you brought this up and this will get your attention:


                  Thank you btw, this is important information I left out.
                  Last edited by Xenocho; 03-14-2018, 05:51 AM.

              • #10
                Deym it. this forum's a PITA
                I have waited for 24 hours for forum mod to approve my post since commenting-on-a-reply-needs-forum-moderation
                And it got no approval
                anyways, here's what I wanna ask about ..
                Click image for larger version

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                Any clues about this, Xeno?
                It's included in the patch notes

                BTW, Thanks on the answer on my previous question
                Now I understand why some classes that increases STATS goes beyond ATTACK cap limit
                ~ Hurri can DANCE ~

                Comment


                • Xenocho
                  Xenocho commented
                  Editing a comment
                  If you recall, there was a time we saw pink numbers from sting breezers and crusaders. These were a result of the class having their stats boosted excessively due to light atk stacking and hence, were able to do 'max' damage, maybe 20x of their atk? Anyway this patch raised the limit so that it's possible to hit higher now. However in the current era I don't think any class can hit those pink numbers anyway.

                • myon
                  myon commented
                  Editing a comment
                  I see.
                  I guess that's gonna be hard after the buff, debuff balance
                  Thanks

                • CLYMAX
                  CLYMAX commented
                  Editing a comment
                  i haven't seen a pink colored damage numbers, that's awesome

              • #11
                I was tested, but the result seem different.
                My char:
                - With Full Element: 1.800.000 att, 88% fire, 295% CD, 56%FD
                - Replace 2 L 90 Fire Jade to 2 Champion Jade with %att: 2.000.000, 71% fire, 295% CD, 56%FD
                But testing with Golem, Dmg output with Champion Jade still less than Full Fire jade (about 5% dmg total)
                What am I wrong ?

                Comment


                • zenkizero
                  zenkizero commented
                  Editing a comment
                  ok, i will check later,thanks you !!

                • Xenocho
                  Xenocho commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Just to add on a last comment:

                  Depending on how you test, if you do not take into consideration the variations, you can easily misinterpret the data. For example, why did I ask about skill rotation? Sometimes a bit delay in the rotation creates a variation in DPS. In addition, sometimes crit and non crits between key skills also lead to variation. And also not forgetting, you have 2 M atk. High chance that is not testing with a broken weapon, and that itself will have variation (refer to the image below). So, I hope this help answer your question. Let me know if you have any other confusion.


                • zenkizero
                  zenkizero commented
                  Editing a comment
                  I am understand the skill rotaion issues, that is the reason im only spam once skill only and compare min dmg - max dmg (both non-crit and crit, engraving active or not..). I wasnt tested yesterday but Im reply soon

              • #12
                I was completed tested, can you calculate for me ? @Xenocho

                Comment


                • #13
                  I was completed, can you calculate for me ? @Xenocho
                  Attached Files

                  Comment


                  • Xenocho
                    Xenocho commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Hmm, the variation between the 10 tries is too big. I'll be honest to say that the data is not enough to work with. Theoretically you should get higher damage with the lower fire attack but your results show otherwise, especially when having crit. Without crit, the highest values hit do not look to be very far.

                    Are the jades you change equal in stat, similar to my comparison above?

                • #14
                  Im only changed 2 L 90 fire jade become 2 Epic 95 jade, still not yet testing with 02 Champion jade, I will test again when i get 02 Champion Attack % Jade.
                  Ps: when complete change 03 fire jade to 03 attack jade ( 2 ring and second weapon), dmg is super lower than 01 fire + 02 attack jade
                  Ps2: all dmg testing are Milions Unit (not K)
                  Last edited by zenkizero; 03-29-2018, 06:51 AM.

                  Comment


                  • Xenocho
                    Xenocho commented
                    Editing a comment
                    I have been a bit busy today. I will look at it tomorrow. Thank you for the effort.

                  • Xenocho
                    Xenocho commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Okay zen, I have looked at it. The picture shown below:


                    The damage from 1st set is higher, even shown in calculation. The error in the above post picture you sent was the ATK not correct for the fire jade setup, making the calculation weird.

                    While it is correct that the atk jade should give more coz balance atk and ele %, the stats you lose from changing the jade make it reduce overall damage.

                    Have I answered your question? Let me know ya Thank you and have a good day.

                  • zenkizero
                    zenkizero commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Im fine, thanks you for good job!!
                    Keep going on!!
                    Best wish for you!!

                • #15
                  Wait, ihave more question: with set 2, how many attack to beat set 1 and can possible in this era ?

                  Comment


                  • Knee
                    Knee commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Epic 95 jade will never win 90L, this is true for all my chars.
                    Only Unique 95 and above can beat 90L on my setup, that extra % attack and recently boosted attack stat on 95 Unique and 95L is alot.
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