Maximizing Damage Potential: Elemental Conversion Jades

[vangeodee]

I'd just like to point out an error you made in the computation for "Ran's" attack with Teardrop. The only time it will ever work that way is if you have nothing else equipped. Otherwise it will not give you a flat out 8.5% bonus.

if we assume Ran and Conan has complete gear, that means plates, costumes etc. With SGG, Conan would have approximately 39.5% total bonus ATK (correct me if I'm wrong, but this is the number I came up with after a quick mental count).

If we apply this 39.5% as a bonus to their base that would yield them 100k each, their atk would be BASE * 1.395 = 100k, or their base being 71.6846k ATK.

Now, since the correct computation for ATK with additional is NEW ATK = BASE * (ORIGINAL% + ADDITIONAL%), this would mean that Ran, would be getting:

NEW ATK = 71.6846k * (1.395 + 0.085) = 106.0932k ATK [ Teardrop gives 8.5% ]

Plugging this into your equation:

Damage = ATK * ELE% = 106.0932 * 1.4 = 148.5305

It's marginally better, but not as much. If you count 0.35% better as being "better", then sure, it is.

Also, this only works for titles. Once you start comparing ATK jades vs ELE jades, things get a bit more hairy.

-----

Could you elaborate on what you mean by "threshold"? I am sort of at a loss as to what you mean by it.

[vangeodee]

@zArAthena

Here's a friend of mine, he's an RM, therefore ECJ user.

https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...2913/image.png

Also, as per your doubts regarding 95U ele% better than 95U atk%, I have a post detailing the limits at which ele% will be better than atk% (which, btw is close to impossible to get). The post is still pending approval though.

Basically, in it i'm saying that if your ele% is lesser than your atk%, 95U ele% jades will be a better choice.

[vangeodee]

@zArAthena

I have a post pending approval explaining in what scenarios will 95U ele% be better than 95U atk%. anything I post that has a link on it automatically goes into pending. god dammit. Anyway, it was an RM that uses ECJ, so naturally, ele% will be better.

Basically, the gist of it is that if you have 90% bonus atk stacked, you will need an ele% of over 90% to make an atk% jade a better choice. For native elemental classes, especially those that have element buff, as long as the total ele% goes over your total atk%, then the atk% will be better.

[zArAthena]

@vangeodee
Try post without the link. Then edit and add the link. It will work.
General gear is you will get around 70% atk while for native ele user, you can reach 100% ele. Which is why atk% jade better.

[vangeodee]

I was thinking back to an old discussion on the CC Forums about the point of equivalence of ele% and atk% (particularly in jade selection).

Credits to Naos for classily handing me my ass in this discussion, for anyone that wishes to have a look, here it is: http://forum.cherrycredits.com/topic/266579-elemental/

For those that are too lazy to open another link, read on.

Naos explained to me (and everyone else) that only at a certain base ele% would an atk% jade be a better choice. Let's go with my DA, a quick round up of all the atk% bonuses I have are:

7% - teary eyed
10% - dest jade
10% - x2 Genesis Rings
6% - Engineer Sword
3% - Engineer Gauntlet
8% - Engineer Helm
7% - Engineer Boots
1.5% - Weapon Engravings
3% - Prototype Wings
8% - Prototype set effect
1.2% - Spirit bonus
30% - CM II

This gives a total of: 94.7% atk

So, we're trying to figure out at what base ele% would an atk% jade be on par with an ele% jade.

If we're to assume 90L jades, the 95L destruction would be 4.5% atk, my atk% with a 90L destruction jade would then become 99.2% or 1.992. Since we've established that damage is equal to ATK*ELE*FD, let's assume FD is constant and our base atk is constant (which it won't be for 90L, but let's just make that assumption for now). Our equivalence equation can then be expressed as:

(x + 0.086) * 1.947 = 1.992x

x = 3.721 or 272.1% element. -> This means that at 272.1% base element (with a 94.7% base atk), a 4.5% atk jade would give the same increment as an 8.6% atk jade. Crazy, right?

Now let's move on to 95 Uniques. Assuming I have Calypse (which I don't) I have the option of using either: an 8.5% atk or 8.5% ele jade (both jades have the same base atk bonus so this is now an apples to apples comparison). Going by the same logic and equation as before, our equivalence is expressed as:

(x + 0.085) * 1.947 = 2.032x

x = 1.947 or 94.7% element -> this means that with 95U jades (or 95 jades for that matter), at 94.7% element with a base atk% of 94.7%, an atk% jade will be on par with a ele% jade.

So what does this all mean? Basically, if you total your base atk%, the number you get would be your ele% theoretical limit. Going over it would result in stacking ele% giving less than stacking atk% (hence, diminishing returns).

So, the threshold is not "around 32%", the threshold for 95 is your base atk% prior to using atk% jade.

[vangeodee]

I was thinking back to an old discussion on the CC Forums about the point of equivalence of ele% and atk% (particularly in jade selection).

Credits to Naos for classily handing me my ass in this discussion, for anyone that wishes to have a look, here it is: and it's gone. fuck it

For those that are too lazy to open another link, read on.

Naos explained to me (and everyone else) that only at a certain base ele% would an atk% jade be a better choice. Let's go with my DA, a quick round up of all the atk% bonuses I have are:

7% - teary eyed
10% - dest jade
10% - x2 Genesis Rings
6% - Engineer Sword
3% - Engineer Gauntlet
8% - Engineer Helm
7% - Engineer Boots
1.5% - Weapon Engravings
3% - Prototype Wings
8% - Prototype set effect
1.2% - Spirit bonus
30% - CM II -> multiplier

This gives a total of: 64.7% * 1.3 = 84.11%

So, we're trying to figure out at what base ele% would an atk% jade be on par with an ele% jade.

If we're to assume 90L jades, the 90L destruction would be 4.5% atk, my atk% with a 90L destruction jade would then become 88.61% or 1.8861. Since we've established that damage is equal to ATK*ELE*FD, let's assume FD is constant and our base atk is constant (which it won't be for 90L, but let's just make that assumption for now). Our equivalence equation can then be expressed as:

(x + 0.086) * 1.8411 = 1.8861x

x = 3.5185 or 251.85% element. -> This means that at 251.85% base element (with a 84.11% base atk), a 4.5% atk jade would give the same increment as an 8.6% atk jade. Crazy, right?

Now let's move on to 95 Uniques. Assuming I have Calypse (which I don't) I have the option of using either: an 8.5% atk or 8.5% ele jade (both jades have the same base atk bonus so this is now an apples to apples comparison). Going by the same logic and equation as before, our equivalence is expressed as:

(x + 0.085) * 1.8411 = 1.9261x

x = 1. 8411 or 84.11% element -> this means that with 95U jades (or 95 jades for that matter), at 84.11% element and with a base atk% of 84.11%, an atk% jade will be on par with a ele% jade. (I forgot to consider my fire buff)

So what does this all mean? Basically, if you total your base atk%, the number you get would be your ele% theoretical limit. Going over it would result in stacking ele% giving less than stacking atk% (hence, diminishing returns).

So, the threshold is not "around 32%", the threshold for 95 is your base atk% prior to using atk% jade.

[zArAthena]

Yup. Your underlying point is true. Just like I usually said: comparing your atk% and ele%, try to add which is lower.
However, your threshold is a little bit off. ~70% atk is nearly the max. That why I quite surprise when you mention 90% atk.

[vangeodee]

However, it's important to note that this is true for 95 jades ONLY. When you are comparing 90/93, the baseline ele% for atk% viability skyrockets.

Again, thanks for pointing out that you can't add the skill atk bonuses. I'll edit the post to reflect this.

[nvLite]

Please note that the threshold is somehow directed to ECJ users with reference to offensive jades.

It is, from what I know, the start of ECJ conversion as you need to gain elemental damage by replacing destruction or magic to elemental jades.

Hence for Jades, threshold should be roughly around 32% for 95E jades as this is the only factor that changes regardless of cash gears.

Again, let us not complicate things with too much equation. The purpose of the post was to point out diminishing returns.

[xynoanex]

Hi, as a black mara i have 67% dark attack without buffs (87%) with buffs but only 20% magic attack from customes. Should i change my dragon jade on my weapons for 8% magic attack each?? It would be 51%(71% with buff) dark attack and 36% magic attack... Should i reduce my dark attack more and change it to Magic attack %??

[vangeodee]

A Friend tested this out, if you're referring to 95 jades, then a 50-50 ratio (2 atk%, 2 ele%) would be a good start.

But again, best way to know is to compute for yourself.

[xynoanex]

even the 10% from heraldry counts into atk% right ?

[Xenocho]

xynoanex yes

[vangeodee]

zArAthena

I was preparing an excel for my friends to use, and I was wondering about how bubble stacking affects stats.

I made a simulation of a naked DA in dngearsim, and I got the following stats:

naked: 3.7k str
bear plate: 5.4k str (which is basically (3.7k + 1.2k) * 1.1)
bear + bubbles: 9.8k str (which is (3.7k+1.2k) * {1+0.1+0.9})

In this case (bubble stack), the total % you get from bubble stacking is added to the total % you have from gears.

Is the preceding calculation true only for bubble stacking? Because if we assumed your point of atk% from CMII as a multiplier to total atk% from gear to be true, shouldn't it work the same way for bubble stacking as well? Does the 30% from Raven's CM-something add to the base, or is a multiplier to the base?

[Xenocho]

Gears are.. similar.

White number = MATK from INT = Total INT * atk multiplier. For Adept, it is 0.8 matk per int
Green number = MATK from GEAR = Gear MATK + (Gear and White number * matk %)
Blue number = MATK from SKILLS = (White MATK + Green MATK) * (Matk %)

[vangeodee]

which is why I use the neutral term atk.

So if a class has str% from CM (like raven) it works the same as bubble that multiplies to post-gear stats? or does it work some other way?

[Xenocho]

The stat gain will be shown as post-gear stats, but the conversion of that stat into matk will increase the white number, which then undergo % increment from gear to increase the green number and will then be subjected to skill matk %, increasing the blue number.

Sorry if the sentence above is a bit confusing.

[zArAthena]

zArAthena

I was preparing an excel for my friends to use, and I was wondering about how bubble stacking affects stats.

I made a simulation of a naked DA in dngearsim, and I got the following stats:

naked: 3.7k str
bear plate: 5.4k str (which is basically (3.7k + 1.2k) * 1.1)
bear + bubbles: 9.8k str (which is (3.7k+1.2k) * {1+0.1+0.9})

In this case (bubble stack), the total % you get from bubble stacking is added to the total % you have from gears.

Is the preceding calculation true only for bubble stacking? Because if we assumed your point of atk% from CMII as a multiplier to total atk% from gear to be true, shouldn't it work the same way for bubble stacking as well? Does the 30% from Raven's CM-something add to the base, or is a multiplier to the base?

Pic1: I use plate 68STR+10%
White: base 3690
Green: 68 + (68+3690)*1.1 = 443
Blue: 70 (Dragon buff)

Pic2: 30 bubble which give 90% str
White: base 3690
Green: 68 + (68+3690)*1.1 = 443
Blue: 70 + (3690+443+70) *1.9 = 3852

[Knee]

I usually just rely on spacem gearsim when I want to improve my char.
Change and have a look at the pdmg/mdmg/eqhp.

How accurate is spacem gearsim calculation?
Is it reliable?

[Xenocho]

Errr, I do not follow the effective pdmg/mdmg/hp, as they do not calculate the same way as I do (which usually is simply just ele * atk). Theirs seem to take other factors into consideration, which may be better or for worse; it is not the information I need, so I usually just use the atk, ele, crit dmg, fd and do my own calculations from there.

[Knee]

Xenocho that's the answer I'm looking for, thank you.

[vangeodee]

It has its own calculation, and unless we know exactly how it's calculated and what it takes into account, we cannot with 100% certainty determine the accuracy of that calculation.

However, you can use it for comparisons between jades/plates/gears, provided that you rely on the same simulator. Makes for a quicker and less painful way to compare builds. I'd say it's a "layman's" way of comparison (since most people can't be bothered to do their own).

[bribot]

Hi guys,

Bribot here from DN ina

First of all thanks for the TS for making this guide.

Just read it thoroughly, so before i have :
ele 105%
atp 51%

I supposed this is not really good?

So I did some TH-ing, somehow I manage to make it :
ele 80%
atp 80%

btw I'm a raven...

I guess this is better than before right?
Thanks guys.

adding up : my calculation of % is summing from gear and title only, i dont really know if this is the correct way to count or not..
anyway, below is the list

ELE
jadeL 90 8.6%
genesis neck 10%
uniq costume lower 17%
uniq 2nd weapon 12.5%
ring 5%
ring 5%
greedy tail 6%
greedy decal 6%
title 10%

ATP
jadeL x2 90 9%
jadeU 95 8.5%
uniq 2nd weapon 5%
title 10%
genesis ringx2 10%
uniq head costume 12%
uniq shoes costume 11%
uniq main weapon 7.5%
greedy wing 7%

[Xenocho]

It helps if you were to do a total ele and atp for convenience, provided it is correct.

From your stats, ele 80.1%, atp 80%, total = 1.801 * 1.80 = 3.2418

If you change the L jade to dual ele, you will get ele 80.1+8.6+8.6 = 97.3% ele, while atk power reduce by 9% to 71%. 1.973 * 1.71 = 3.37383

Using 2 ele L jade is still stronger.

While it is important to balance it out, you should not use the 90 L dest jade because it is 4.5% versus the ele jade of 8.6%. due to this difference, using the 2 L dark jade is better than 2 L dest jade

[Xenocho]

Btw your title has both atp and ele 10%?

[bribot]

my savior !!!!
thanks Xenocho

[bribot]

Xenocho

yes, GODLIKE title in DN INA has ATP% & ELE%.

A bit spoiled I guess?

[Xenocho]

Yes LOL. 10% is OP. Anyway feel free to ask anything you wish ya I can help with stat and damage calculation matters

[bribot]

hahaha
ok, thanks a lot Xenocho !!

[nvLite]

Zerenix I hope you will be able to read this as your profile cannot receive Private messages nor Visitor Messages.


Visitor post:

Hi, i have been wondering. In my current situation, a person with no budget to even buy a costume, maybe possibly enough for the magic rings and title for elemental conversion. Should I stick to pure physical/magic?

Because I'm planning to make Tempest, Windwalker, and Barbarian. Can you give me some tips XD
Thank you in advance

Good Day!

In your current situation, are you more of a solo player or you manage to find parties?

In my opinion, If you are more of a solo player, which is not really recommended to the game btw, sticking with Attack jades can be good temporarily, while you are farming gold or resources for going elemental.

In a party perspective, elemental is always the way to go.

Have a nice day!

[Zerenix]

Yay! Thank you. Do you know the reason why I cant be messaged in private?

And btw, Are elemental skill rings still relevant in lvl 95 cap? because I'm using chiron necklace at earrings and 2 Rune L Rings with Legend Fire Jade. My S.D has 5% elemental title , 2 magic cash ring, 3 fire jades, 1 ECJ i tink it was about 15% but when I didn't changed to elemental yet, my noob stats patk was 209 -230 k i think and it became 190-209k something like that. What would you recommend? also 3rd stats for heraldry XD

TIA

[ikawnathebestck]

Care too explain in a nutshell.

[ikawnathebestck]

So invest your Mattack for elem? Example pleasee :3

[Xenocho]

I would recommend you look through posts in this thread for mathematical examples.

[ikawnathebestck]

Okay Thanks!

[EventHorizon]

So if I already reached the 32% threshold on the element I chose, I can now focus on my matk? I would like to exchange 1 of my attack jade that has elemental attack to a matk jade (8.5% matk).
my current matk is 466000 and my elemental attack is at 40%.
I tried the illustration you gave and these were my calculations:
422,000 x 108.5% x 1.32 = 604,388 (Here, I used 2 lightning jade + 1 matk jade)
422,000 x 1.40 = 590,800 (Here, is 3 lightning jades)
Is this correct?

[Xenocho]

Not correct. The increase for using a matk jade is rarely fully 8.5% due to other sources of matk such as plates costumes titles. Your stat window already includes these sources of matk.

The 32% threshold actually refers to minimum ele attack for ecj to surpass attack jades. to be extremely efficient, you need to count the total light atk versus matk % and balance them out. Calculate manually by adding up the % per gear

[nasayni08]

Can you guys help me select a title, I farmed 150k and not sure to select teardrop or sgg on my current stats. Appreciate your feedback!

[Knee]

Have you heard of spacem dngearsim?

[Xenocho]

The link you show cannot provide us with answers. Read my detailed guide on which to choose.

Personally I don't wish to promote my guide, but honestly, the answers you seek is in there.

[nvLite]

I added a link to Remm'y guide on the LDR portion.

[nvLite]

Updated:
- Mercenary Skills document By Silvie and Hieratia