I just don't understand.

[Mostein]

I seriously cannot fully comprehend this "elemental conversion" thing and it is the only thing that still confuses the shit out of me in this game.

So if I play a non-element class, I equip this special "element conversion" Gem that automatically converts ALL of my attacks to an element type? So I use Ice conversion gem, all of my skills will now be ice damage?

What is the name of this conversion gem(s)????

So I equip one element CONVERSION gem on my main weapon, and I put NORMAL element gems (like ice atk% or dark atk%) in my other 3 offensive slots instead of destructive (Phys%) ones?

But doesn't that mean I am only replacing the Physical % damage with Element % damage? It seems like the exact same thing....If I have 10% phys damage bonus, and I convert it to 10% light damage bonus, isn't that technically the same thing???

Why do some gems have -15% or +15% element damage. Is this supposed to be the conversion gem? a gem that gives me negative element damage????????????

So I put a light attack element CONVERSION gem on my weapon, and NORMAL light gems in the other 3 slots, is this a FLAT increase to my damage or does it only increase my damage when someone uses s light resist debuff on a boss? What if the boss is resistant to my element?

Should a new player with trash epic gear even bother with this? Because If this is some end-game ultra min-max type shit that only marginally increases power, then aint nobody got time for that, I still need to focus on enhancing my gear and getting all my crests and basic shit like that

Yes or no, does it really matter AT ALL, which element I choose to convert to (i.e, is any element better than another)?

extra:
95 Gems cannot be enhanced....should I just use those? are they better? Because not having to worry about enhancing 10 lv93 gems to +15 is a huge load off my shoulders and I can put those recources into something else.

super off topic:
Oracle when? I came back to specifically play this class. I love Kali but hate all her base classes, however this class seems much funner than the base ones.

[Frikinhel]

I don't know much about it either but this is my conversion gem... (No worries, I'm not gear shy. )
I have trash gear but my guildie talked me into getting it.
The gems with -15% or -14% (found this on a 95 gem) are the conversion gems.
If you're going with light then you're looking for a gem with "Lightning" in the name.
(Abyssal = Dark, Blazing = Fire, I don't remember what ice's other name was)

[Hanakarasu]

I'd recommend reviewing this thread:

http://forum.dragonnest.com/forum/se...nversion-jades

As for your question regarding the Oracle Elder, there's a chance we'll see her in our November update.

[Mostein]

I have already seen that thread and frankly it is an overwhelming amount of information and it didn't help much in explaining what this fundamentally does or how to ACTUALLY do it (i.e its not very newb friendly ).

The post didn't answer enough of my questions for me to comfortably understand what this is (maybe it did but I am just too stupid to understand all those charts) The only thing I got from that was that this "conversion" is a thing and I should do it on my class.

I Just need simple straightforward "yes or no" answers, which is why I made this thread. I just want to know how it works for now, understanding the math behind it all can come later.

[Mostein]

I don't know much about it either but this is my conversion gem... (No worries, I'm not gear shy. )
I have trash gear but my guildie talked me into getting it.
The gems with -15% or -14% (found this on a 95 gem) are the conversion gems.
If you're going with light then you're looking for a gem with "Lightning" in the name.
(Abyssal = Dark, Blazing = Fire, I don't remember what ice's other name was)

ty, that info does help me understand a bit better. But my question is why doe it give negative element damage.......

[Hanakarasu]

ty, that info does help me understand a bit better. But my question is why doe it give negative element damage.......

It's pretty much a trade-off, also a byproduct from the earlier caps.
I believe it was an attempt to make sure that the non-elemental classes wouldn't gain elemental damage higher than the actual elemental classes, in fact if I remember right, the earlier versions of the conversion gems had -30% elemental damage instead of -15%.

[ILLbeURdeath]

Converting is mostly for raiding and end game content, if you're a casual you need not worry about converting, you can stay neutral and just stack main stat and raw damage.

The -15% penalty is what you pay to be elemental if you are a neutral class. Once converted it's your duty to now stack ele as well and the more you can stack, the more you can offset this penalty.

You convert to do more damage in a party setting, hence why it's needed for raiding so you can do your utmost damage.

Why does it yield more damage? Simple, party buffs and debuffs. Ele can be boosted and the defense/resistance lowered thus giving you a big boost in the DPS category.

You will do more damage for raids if you convert than if you were to stay neutral, if you're neutral you won't benefit from a lot of the party buffs available and debuffs.

Cheers o/

[Hanakarasu]

Yep, pretty much this.

[BowieSage]

Okay, let me see if I can explain this well enough.

Short version: choose whether or not to convert based on your class and your usual teams (assuming you don't run solo the majority of the time).

Long version (prepare for wall of text, because I'm not sure if I can answer ALL of those questions in a few sentences):

Yes, when you equip a conversion gem of one of the four elements, all of your non-elemental attacks will be converted to that element (ex: you can convert a Gear Master to do dark damage, but Frost Tower will still do ice damage). However, non-elemental classes, iirc, naturally have higher skill values than elemental classes, so the gems come with a -14%/-15% ele damage penalty for that element to balance it out. Two regular ele gems are usually enough to cancel it out, though. The actual gem names are: Blazing (Fire), Abyssal (Dark), Lightning Flame (Light), and iirc Iced Moon (Ice).

As for physical/magic +10% vs. ele +10%, they are two completely separate increases, and the difference is one of stat/damage application and diminishing returns. The +10% phys/mag increases your total physical/mag damage STAT by 10% of its base (basically, your phys/mag from gear and such before applying % boosts). This means you have higher base damage, but depending on how much damage you already have (ex: you have +40-50% phys/mag from other sources), this could actually be smaller than you'd think, especially if you're exposed to multiple phys/mag damage buffs. Elemental attack %, on the other hand, affects your overall damage, and isn't AS vulnerable to diminishing returns. To try to explain better, say you have 25% dark attack as a Black Mara (low, but for the sake of the example), and use her transformation skill. Since it's dark element, she gains a +1.25x multiplier to the damage formula, unlike physical/mag damage, which is part of the base skill damage segment. So it pretty much works like final damage, except only for the respective element. So depending on investments, +10% ele atk can effectively give you higher damage than +10% phys/mag damage, and is usually recommended (with one exception being Saints, since they're not usually known for high DPS, and Awakened Great Heal becomes more effective with higher mag dmg).

And no, it doesn't actually replace physical or magic damage. You're still doing either physical or magical damage based on your class. It's just that, as I pointed out earlier, you add an additional multiplier to your overall damage.

As for how element is actually applied, well...I'll give what I can figure of the actual damage formula to give you an idea of how it works (not including crit/crit dmg, though). It kinda works like this (note that all % are treated as decimal multipliers, so 100% and 35%, for example, would be treated as x1 and x0.35 respectively):

Skill damage: phys/mag damage (phys/mag dmg stat in town x phys/mag modifiers) x skill % (depending on the skill, though, it's a bit more complicated than this due to skill coefficients)
Raw damage: skill damage x (1 - enemy phys/mag defense%) x (1 - phys/mag dmg reducton) ----- (ex: an enemy with enough phys/mag defense for 10% results in a x0.9 modifier, and a 20% phys/mag damage reduction results in x0.8)
Elemental damage: raw damage x (1 + ele atk) x (1 - enemy ele def) ----- (ex: 20% ele atk results in x1.2, and an enemy with 10% ele defense results in x0.9) Note: if a non-elemental skill is used, then both ele atk and enemy ele def are both set to 0.
Final Damage: elemental damage x (1 + final damage %) ----- (ex: a final damage stat of 30% results in a x1.3 modifier)

So the total formula, sans crit/crit damage, would be: (phys/mag damage x skill power/coefficient) x (1 - phys/mag defense) x (1 - phys/mag dmg reduction) x (1 + ele atk) x (1 - ele def) x (1 + final dmg)
With a successful crit, add a multiplier based on your crit damage (x2 minimum with 200% crit dmg).

That's just one order, but it should show how element damage affects your overall damage, and to show that it's applied all the time regardless of buffs/debuffs.


As for whether or not you should use a conversion gem at all, gear doesn't really matter so much when making the decision (though you should obviously boost your ele atk as high as possible if you do). What DOES matter, however, is whether or not you'll be running with reliable ele def debuffs (as in: will either always be active or have very short downtimes) to take advantage of the additional multiplier. For Shooting Star and Gear Master, converting is a bit of a no-brainer, since they always have access to a 20% ele defense debuff, even when running solo, thanks to Chemical Grenade and its low 2sec downtime (at max level). Same with Ruina due to Exploding Palm EX's ele debuff (with little to no downtime at all when using an Exploding Palm CD plate and a proper gear step rotation, especially when under Pressure Release). Classes like both Dancers, Lunar Knight, or Dragoon, on the other hand, don't have a readily-available ele debuff to make use of (outside of -ele% weapon engraving effects, but they trigger at random and the downtime is too long to really rely on them), meaning that it's not necessarily wise to use a conversion gem when going solo unless you can boost your ele atk high enough to make up for the lower raw phys/mag damage OR have a mercenary that can reliably apply proper ele debuffs (assuming they still work and you're running a dungeon they can be used in). However, if you often run with a party that can maintain ele debuffs (ex: if you regularly run with a SS or GM with Chemical Grenade, or a Crusader with Goddess Relic EX), then it's best to convert to an element to increase your overall DPS.


As for 95 gems, it really depends. If you can get your hands on Unique/Legend 95 gems with the stats you want, then definitely use those. For Epics, however, only use them if you don't have better 93 gems, especially since 95 defensive gems lack the STR/AGI/INT% stat.

And concerning the Oracle Elder...your guess is as good as mine, but she MIGHT be in the next update. Or the one after, but I don't think she was far from the Slayer Mode update either way.


Fun fact: elemental conversion gems will ALSO affect your mercenary's non-elemental skills if they're active, so you could be a Light-converted Shooting Star with Nerwin, and her attacks will also have light element if you're doing a dungeon solo or with one other person. Can't say whether or not they're also affected by your ele atk%, though. Not a huge deal, but still something neat to point out. Oh, and ele gems don't work in any dungeon with preset class stats (ex: treasure dungeons or Citadel of Erosion), though for most of those dungeons your overall gear doesn't matter in the first place.

[Fox Says Meow~]

if u intend to develop character and keep playing this game, then u ALWAYS convert as neutral class
if u put any amount of effort into gearing, u will do more dps converted than staying neutral, even in worst possible situation

im happy to tell u more about how math in this game works but i dont think most people care about the exact detail equations and stuffs
with how easily accessible elemental% is nowadays, not converting loses u so much dps and it shouldn't even be an option
there is no "if A then convert if B then neutral", the answer to ur question is simply: always convert

[Tara]

To make a long story short :
1.the conversion gem converts your damage to whichever element you've chosen, but reduces your damage by 15%(93 gems)

2.The other elemental atk gems increase your atk by 8...%, so 8% *3 gems

3. Besides the increase in your attack, the bosses usually have less ele resist than phy or magic resist. In a nest like Rune, different bosses have different elemental resists so people change gems in between raid stages, or at least used to.

4. The ice conversion gem is called Iced Moon Enhanced
(light conversion is Lightning Flame, Fire conversion is Blazing Wave, Dark conversion gem is Abyssal )
The attack gems are Lake, Light, Fire, Dark respectively.

[ELpatron50]

This conversion is too complex/complicated that many players got confused please make it more simple .
Is this also the conversion in Mobile DN
http://www.dnsea.net/ ?

[Patrache]

The Numbers dont lie! and they spell disaster for you at Sacrifice!

[Mostein]

Thanks for the info guys I think i have a good enough understanding of this now (finally). Even though I will probably never fully get how this mathematically makes me stronger, the important thing is is just does apparently, and everyone does it, so i guess so I'ma do it too. Hell I barely understand how FD works, I get 500 FD and it says my FD only increased by 1% and I'm like "...worth it???", but this was far more confusing than FD to me.

Anyways, I will convert to Ice because that seems to be much cheaper than the other elements. So I will get the Ice moon gem and 3 Lake gems. I will use the manticore expert title as well (I currently have Teary-eyed but ele% is a better multiplier than phys% according to you guys, also my FD is shite anyways so its not like any of ther other stats make a difference....)

[Mostein]

Ok I think I fully understand it after sleeping on it and analyzing that try-hard thread with all the charts. This is what I understand how this works and please correct me if I miss anything or get something wrong.


-Element damage is an additional damage multiplier that neutral classes lack the ability to take advantage of, but can be granted to neutral classes through a Conversion gem.
-Element damage and physical/magic damage are two different multipliers, meaning ideally optimizing both will net the greatest damage gain, instead of optimizing one over the other.
-Element damage% requires sacrificing some of your physical damage%. However, this will still be a net-increase in damage so it is worth it.



-Without P2W costumes, you can have up to 18% element damage on your gear.
-This gives you an equivalent flat damage increase as 4 legendary destructive gems (which provide 18% phys damage).
-However, the 18% element damage can be further enhanced by elemental buffs/debuffs, thus increasing your damage multiplier.
-It can also be increased much further than 18% with cash items (up to 25%+??), making it an even larger multiplier than the neutral one.



-Ele% boots your OVERALL damage, while Phys% boosts your BASE damage stat. This means ele% is much greater damage multiplier than Phy%.
For example: 10% element damage will always yield greater flat damage (without buffs/debuffs) compared to 10% phys damage. Adding the buffs/debuffs will only greatly amplify the element damage while it does nothing to the physical damage.
-The conversion gems have -% elemental damage to prevent non elemental classes from becoming OP.

Anyways I think that's how it all works. Jesus Christ Korea, stop making gear in your games so complicated

[ILLbeURdeath]

You got the basic understanding of it now o/

[Fox Says Meow~]

yea and to give u a quantitative idea of how much dps ur missing, heres some math if u do care

(2nd layer dmg multipliers is separate so u dont need to include them in calulation) if u convert, your total dmg = raw dmg x (1st layer dmg multiplier) x (elemental dmg multiplier). if u dont convert, u lose elemental dmg multiplier in exchange for 16% (or in the case of lgrade gems, 18%) 1st layer dmg multiplier
ur raw dmg should stay the same (or extremely close) whether u convert or not since raw stats on gems are pretty much equal

at the very worst case scenario for converting, lets say u have absolutely no ec investment and not even 95 accessories, then ur 1st layer dmg multiplier is only 10% (from destructive / mystical plate)
ur total dmg if u stay neutral = 100% + 10% + 4%(gems) x 4 = 126%
like u said, 18% elemental is extremely easy to get (most of these items are practically free)
ur total dmg if u convert = (100% + 10%) x (100% + 18%) = 129.8%

so even if u play solo and is a class w/o ele debuff, have no extra ec gear, just by doing the bare minimum of converting, u gain 3% dps

in end game people are having over 60% in both 1st layer dmg multiplier and elemental dmg multiplier, which makes not converting practically loses u over 40% of ur dps:
not converting = 100% + 60% + 4.5% x 4 = 178%
converting = (100% + 60%) x (100% + 60%) = 256%
and if u factor in elemental debuff from ur own weapon engravings, as well as potential party debuffs, ur losing more than half of ur dps in end game

so yes, always always convert, theres no debate about it, u will always gain dps

[fargone]

This was a very helpful thread. I had -15% on my already elemental competent Toons.

[ceruulean]

Historically, neutral gems only have 4% dmg while elemental gems have 8% ele, so elemental classes had an edge in gear AND benefited from elemental debuff while neutral classes can’t? (Any gem level 93 and below basically)

So thats where the purpose of conversion gems came in, to essentially turn a neutral class into an elemental class.

However, when it came to raids, each boss has a different elemental weakness. So that meant for neutral classes, it was actually super expensive because you needed multiple elemental conversions on hand to switch, and do more damage.

but anyway, you are right 1% ele = 1% dmg (in general)

WITH 95 cap, 95 gems give 8% ele or dmg.

So now, if you convert as a neutral class without certain ele% gear, you will get maybe 19% dmg versus staying neutral gives 32% dmg. For starters, get 1 conversion gem (any element will do), and three %dmg gems. So if you want, you can switch to a conversion gem when in a party w/ an elemental debuffer (elemental debuff is 1.2x multiplier to damage which is still good to take advantage), and switch the conversion gem to a 4th neutral gem when soloing OR there is no elemental debuffer (not recommended to go without an elemental debuff class but it happens, for example your 4 man consists of an archer, warrior, dancer, saint, none of these classes have an elemental debuff, but if you switch out the saint to physician, or switch the dancer to a soul eater, then you have an elemental debuffer and should convert)

if you ever touch gear below lvl 95, then yes elemental conversion is better

the reason why the element you choose doesn’t matter is because every elemental debuff is universal (aka debuffs for every element). In the past, it used to be that fire classes only debuffs fire, and light classes only debuffer light, dark only debuffer dark, and ice could debuff for everyone (freeze layer was op) but that’s not the case anymore, debuffs are just separated as elemental or non-elemental. (Ice stack is still op and separate)

[Mostein]

You see, I thought I had this figured out, but you just confused the crap out of me yet again..........
So now it is better for physical based to not go elemental?????
Can someone please do a control/dps test of this....maybe make a video comparing the two, because idk wtf to believe anymore.

[Fox Says Meow~]

hmm i forgot about 95 gems having dest/myst, so the requirement to converting is slightly higher: at the worst case scenario (no additional multipliers other than 10% from dest/myst plate), 142% / 110% = 129%, u will need 29% elemental for converting to be better than not converting
however, to reach 29% elemental we will need either ec gear or techs, which means u will also have higher dmg multiplier to lower the 29% elemental requirement

lets instead take a look at a very realistic minimum case:
- red ice dragon wtd set (free from leveling character to max): +3% dmg
- destructive/mystical plate (free from quests/growth guide): +10% dmg
- 7 set rare costume (30k et/ec): +8% dmg
- 2x rare weapon engravings (bad ones are practically free on mp): +2% dmg
so now we sum up to 23% dmg multiplier, with 4x destructive/mystical gems on top, we will be doing 155% dmg if we stay neutral and dont convert

now if we do convert, here are the things we need
- conversion gem (1k aura for 95, 90/93 ones are practically free): -15% ele
- 3x elemental gems: +24% ele
- 2x shiny star fragment rings (practically free): +4% ele
- any ele title: +5% ele
- 7 set rare costume (30k et/ec): +7% ele
- elemental talisman (practically free): +2% ele
this sums up to 27% ele. so if we do convert, we will be doing 123% x 127% = 156.2% dmg, which is already higher than not converting
this is excluding any potential benefit from weapon engravings or party debuffs, which can add up to 45% additional multiplier
and with any amount of improvement to ur multipliers (getting more ele%, or getting more dmg%), converting will pull even further ahead than staying neutral

so i guess although my original calculation forgot about 8% gems, the conclusion still stays true

tldr: always convert, if u decide to take this game any seriously

[Fox Says Meow~]

now onto the next topic: (conversion + 3x 8% destructive/mystical gems) vs (conversion + 3x 8% elemental gems)

i see a lot of people (esp those who are geared) are switching over to destructive/mystical gems so they can have higher pdmg/mdmg in town. yes ur stats do look nicer, but u r still losing dps using destructive/mystical gems instead of elemental gems

as we established earlier, ur total dmg = base x dmg multiplier x ele multiplier x (... a bunch of other multipliers that stay the same regardless what gem u use)
so the only thing that we need to compare is simply "dmg multiplier x ele multiplier", which we will write it as "dmg% x ele%" for short

using 3x destructive/mystical gems instead of 3x elemental gems, gains 24% dmg, while losing 24% ele
so in order to figure out when will using destructive/mystical gems better than elemental gems, we have inequation:
( dmg% + 24% ) x ( ele% - 24% ) > dmg% x ele%
if u solve it, u will get: ele% > dmg% + 24%

this will always never happen if u gear properly. most people have equal amount of dmg% and ele% from gear (end game both should be around 60-70%), and there will almost never be a case where u will have a whole 24% ele higher than dmg

(this is also true for innate elemental classes, which is why they prefer destructive/mystical over elemental gems: they can easily satisfy ele% > dmg% + 24%)

tldr: for converted classes, still use elemental gems instead of destructive/mystical gems

[zenkizero]

My class is Destroyer
In town start:
ATT: 1.011.000
FIRE ELEMENT: 79.2% ( FULL ELEMENT JADE)
CRIT DMG: 256%
FD: 26%

AND

when change
ATT: 1.055.000
FIRE ELEMENT: 70.6% (01 CHAMP ATTACK JADE)
CRIT DMG: 256%
FD: 26%

Im tesing with Golem but hard to see difference.
Should I replace or not ?