Problems with Crusader (please send to ED devs)

[MedicalKit]

For a while there have been a few crucial problems that have felt very wrong. Understandably the devs have a lot on their plate and other classes might have problems too. My intention is to make sure these important problems for Crusader atleast reach the devs.

To begin with I want to address the fact that crusader is supposed to be a mixed damage class, but with the recent buff to int, it is now the better option. This is further extrapolated by the fact that crusader is forced to use only one kind of gem. what is the point of having mixed stats if the class is only allowed to stack one type of damage? This is a hard problem to address and might require some skill changes, or passive changes, but it is rather annoying.

On to a more important problem, judgement hammer ex is currently useless and I think the devs don't know. The ex makes it so the hammer becomes a boomerang. You throw it and it comes back. It sounds like double damage right? Well it used to be but not under the new system. Crusaders are lucky to get 200k dmg from it when it comes back (half the time it is bugged, and won't come back if it hits a wall). This is because the skill was made to only do damage if you are close to your target. Only the first two hits do damage. So when it comes back it does close to 0 damage. It is effectively useless. The devs need to figure something out to make it do damage.

The next gripe I have is the cleric hp party buff. The hp and healing was and still is intended for guardians and saints. Inquisator and crusader get the same buff, but have now become dps classes in T5. The devs never gave us a new buff to compensate. I believe our buff should be different. The same can apply to arch heretic. It makes no sense that this buff favours one side of our tree. It would be like warriors getting a magic damage party buff only, just to boost lunar knights. It wouldn't be fair to glads or mercenaries.

Finally smite ex instant becoming an rng skill with 50 %. I don't understand why it used to be 100% and now it has become a skill that only activates half the time. Why is my class dependent on luck to activate zap's divine brand? It makes no sense why sometimes this skill will never activate in the course of a boss fight, and my dps suffers as a result. I shouldn't have to rely on luck to play my class. Change it back to 100%.

This is all I feel is inherently broken. Please send it to the Devs to look into Dean50. Or any other gm. Thank you!

[TrumpForce]

just cuz u bad at dragon nest doesn't mean u gotta blame it on ur class. Crusadr is already gud. U just need to play smart n better but don't think that is possible 4 u lmfao

[TheKo]

LOL XD. Nice alt

[Some Asian Guy]

buff to int? when did that happen?

[Aisuru]

Int plates (including 3rd line ints) have been buffed since they were always behind agi and str. The gems should have been buffed as well but were not, so it's a half buff.

[CraZyZeuS]

I don't believe he specifically means a buff to intellect as a stat, but rather the effectiveness of intellect for Crusader ever since the revamp. In order to produce more damage output, Crusaders now focus on magic attack and intellect rather than strength, and this hurts previous Crusader players who stacked strength.

IMO, Crusaders are fine. Every class has issues but Crusaders can dish out enough DPS as a tank class. The only real problem I can agree with is the Judgemental Hammer EX. It really serves no purpose at all as the return damage is redundant.

Crusader ultimate is also another issue but it's just a minor one. Despite being buffed numerous times, it still is an ultimate not many Paladins tend to use.

[MedicalKit]

I wanted to avoid taking about how bad the ultimate was because some other classes have terrible ultimates and hog itself lets us free dps pretty hard. But you are right the ultimate is terrible. But that is more an issue with numbers rather than how inherently broken it is.

[Matchlight]

As someone who mains a sader I admit that we don't get as much love as other cleric specializations, or at least that it usually seems that way. Nonetheless, all classes go through periods of being super strong or super weak and most of your issues have their own ways to be dealt with- these aren't things that are going to be changed in an individual patch. If it really bothers you that much your best bet is to wait for a major rebalancing with a new level cap.

In the meantime:

a) Crusader isn't supposed to be a mixed damage class- it's supposed to benefit from mixed damage. Most of our skills do light elemental magic damage and so you should be focusing on that. Judgement's power means that all of the extra strength we get won't go to waste and we can tack on more and benefit from it if we have room. Crusader can reach the same level as other classes it just takes a bit of work.

2) Hammer is a problem as a 50 but just think of it as purely the first two hits. Low cooldown and easy burst damage to kill things fast. Use it differently.

III) Cleric has always been and always will be a class centered around support and healing. This isn't going to change and lets be honest: the only time you'll really be needing your cleric buff is in a party with plenty of other people to give you other class buffs.

d) You can still activate brand by landing leapfrog and a single smite. Or you can lower the cooldown of regular smite through divine combo and get off a second one. Smite exi isn't supposed to be the driving cause for brand to go off, it's supposed to speed things up and give room for error. Just check to make sure your rotations are right and you should be fine.

Sure we have a lot of problems but nothing here is gamebreaking and it's not like things won't change- smite used to be one of the hardest hitting skills in the game. Just be patient and work with what you have.

[Matchlight]

The way I worded things was a little wrong so let me explain a bit more:

B) When I said "use it differently" what I really meant was "use it for a different purpose." Sure, judgement hammer ex is pretty lame and it’s damage can only back scratch bosses- but think of it for it's utility instead of just it's damage. For instance, the high burst damage in the first two hits means you can use it to kill separated or straggling mobs quickly; it can also be used during certain boss mechanics where things need to be hit hard and fast (second stage RDN orbs, for example.) Alternatively, with the push and pull factor on hammer ex (even if it is a bit wonky,) you can reliably get about 6-8 light damage hits on smaller monsters, proven that they don't die, and 8-10 hits on larger bosses. If you fit it in your rotations after smite then you can reduce the cooldown by at least eight to ten seconds if not more.

3) This is where we disagree. I don't know much about Arch Heretic, or spin off classes in general for that matter, so I'll skip over it and only say that Crusaders and Inquisitors are hybrid support classes. Of course, with good stats any class can do enough damage to be considered a prime damaging character, but if talking about the average player then I think Crusader and Inquisitor can only be considered as quasi dps. You can see this through the hybridization of their second specialization skill tree- the attraction of a Crusader or Inquisitor isn't their insane damage, it's their ability to fill different roles. Crusader can function as a sub tank if spec'd right, and even as an emergency main if a merc or guard isn't present. Inquisitors are a little different with the removal of party buffs and the nerfing of priest's basic heal, but I'd like to say it's only a particular phase and a larger support focus will eventually be brought back. On the other hand, Inquisitors can still provide debuffs and interruptions and can take on a more aggressive support stance.
As more players get stronger and raids get comparatively easier, pure tank and support classes get phased out in favor of other classes (Crusader/Inquisitor) that can perform the minimum functions required but also bring more damage to the table. You can literally see this phenomenon every day if you just look at the restructuring and outsourcing of companies. (Of course, it's not as evident in the game right now because these big tank classes can more or less keep up with the damage output of a Crusader, and that's the big issue of the class.)

4) I also dislike the luck-orientation in regards to Crusader but I also think it's necessary to balance out the reducible cooldown of smite. I mostly play Crusader for pvp, and I don't even want to get into how broken the class would be if smite exi was 100% after a smite cast, and so purely in regards to pve do I say that with the utility of multi-hit light based attacks and the class mastery does smite exi reach a rough balance. Divine Combo and Judgement Hammer (here's where it comes into play) can cool down your smite by approximately twenty seconds if used in sequence (though I’m definitely not saying that you always can and always should do that.) If smite exi doesn't cast there are ways to use smite again and quickly get another chance, and this is even considering the fact that smite exi isn't critical at all. I stand by my earlier point and say that it's an added bonus for the comfort of your fingers and leeway for moving bosses.

Ultimately what I'm trying to say is that while we may not be personally satisfied, these issues aren't game breaking. Just be patient, I guarantee that thing will be completely revamped sometime in the future and we'll have a whole new set of issues to be irritated with.

[MedicalKit]

I'd like to stress that using it differently does not excuse its blatant terrible design. Of course you already knew that though, and I know you weren't implying it. Judgemental hammer needs to be fixed, it really can't and shouldn't be put any other way.

On to your third point. I'm sorry but you are factually wrong, in the eyes of the developers and the many others that play inquis, sader and arch heretic. They are not support classes and have no method of support at all. Inquisitor has been stripped of his ability to support, and the devs themselves pushed away from it. Crusader having a way to get aggro, does not make him a quasi dps. In fact many opt out of provoke and every team, I have witnessed inm this server and other servers opt for a guardian. Crusader does not have the ability to tank and dps at the same time anymore. I don't know where you still have this idea that they have any support skills.

[Matchlight]

I'll cave a little bit because like I said earlier, I'm a PvP Crusader and not well versed with PvE, especially after coming back after the transfer, however, even with what you say, I still personally view Crusader as a hybrid class and don't think I'll ever be able to acknowledge it as full dps. Perhaps it's my definition of support, which I don't classify as purely healing or buffing, but utility. Anyhow, my thinking may be dated but I would need a lot more evidence than just the alleged testimonies of what you say is the majority of the player base and the developers (like a direct source or statement.) I'm not at all saying that you're wrong, I'm just saying that I'll stand by my point of view until I see sufficient evidence that will change my perspective After all, that's all this really is: perspective.

BUT ANYWAY, I'm getting a little defensive but this third point has gotten majorly off topic, and I'm guilty for it's direction. Even if you don't consider the specializations of Crusader or Inquisitor as support, the cleric base class was designed for exactly such a purpose. I don't think that that method of thinking has changed in the eyes of the developers, and because of that, unless the buff changes for Guardian and Saint as well, redemption aura is what you're stuck with. Other classes don't have split base class buff skills, so it doesn't make sense why cleric would be different. And besides, if a health based class buff wasn't stuck onto cleric, then which class would it be stuck on?

This doesn't change the fact that while being a damage specialized support class (I'm kidding, I'm kidding) having a health based party buff skill is pretty insignificant compared to everything else, and so I don't even think it's worth being upset about or waiting for a revamp. I'm just trying to make a point that these issues, save judgement hammer (which more or less has a work around in the meantime, which was all I was trying to get at) aren't gamebreaking. Everything will change eventually so it's not really worth being upset over.

[HmoobLauj]

Not sure if any of you other sader mains saw my post from awhile back discussing revamp ideas for certain skills so I'll just copy and paste them here.

Judgmental Hammer EX
Instead of a returning judgmental hammer (if it even returns at all LOL) that does little to no damage, you now throw out 3 judgmental hammers in a frontal cone. The 3 judgmental hammers does not return to the caster.
This will accommodate and improve on judgmental hammer's small hit box for the damage that you expect and want to see.

Awakened Goddess Relic
The holy orb's area of effect is now much larger and upon leaving the holy orb's area of effect, the light attribute buff lasts for more than 1 seconds.
This will help against mobile bosses.

Awakened charitable zap
I like what they did with the skill but removing the tick damage was unnecessary. They should've kept the tick damage to help reduce its own cooldown for easier access to god's judgment as well as reducing smite's cooldown. Either that or make awakened charitable zap a ctc skill with a max charge of 2. This would also make awakened charitable zap more relevant for pvp as it is completely useless the way it is now.

[MedicalKit]

Not sure if any of you other sader mains saw my post from awhile back discussing revamp ideas for certain skills so I'll just copy and paste them here.

Judgmental Hammer EX
Instead of a returning judgmental hammer (if it even returns at all LOL) that does little to no damage, you now throw out 3 judgmental hammers in a frontal cone. The 3 judgmental hammers does not return to the caster.
This will accommodate and improve on judgmental hammer's small hit box for the damage that you expect and want to see.

Awakened Goddess Relic
The holy orb's area of effect is now much larger and upon leaving the holy orb's area of effect, the light attribute buff lasts for more than 1 seconds.
This will help against mobile bosses.

Awakened charitable zap
I like what they did with the skill but removing the tick damage was unnecessary. They should've kept the tick damage to help reduce its own cooldown for easier access to god's judgment as well as reducing smite's cooldown. Either that or make awakened charitable zap a ctc skill with a max charge of 2. This would also make awakened charitable zap more relevant for pvp as it is completely useless the way it is now.

I actually really like those ideas. Dean50

[Kov]

Just hope they do some class changes to sader in the upcoming awakening for sins.

[HmoobLauj]

Since saders is a mixed dmg type class, I should also add that back when the devs added phys dmg % to goddess relic and sacred hammering, why leave chariable zap to be only mag dmg % and not both phys and mag dmg %? One of sader's core skills and the only skill to not be both phys and mag dmg %. So my question is why haven't the devs added phys dmg % to chariable zap yet?

[Matchlight]

Because the skills are justifiable as such. Getting crushed by a relic or smacked by a hammer would definitely be a physical blow, but pure lightning? it wouldn't make any sense. Sure, the game's not known for it's realism but adding stats just for the sake of adding stats would just be irritating.

[MedicalKit]

Dean50 Can you at least relay the message about judgmental hammer to the devs? I'd appreciate if you could send the message about a new party buff too.

[ceruulean]

Lmfao this thread as bad as the glad one

what do you do if u have a non cleric tank and non cleric healer where da fuq do u get healing aura buff

from the dps clerics

judgemental hammer sucks but sader is still top dps so whatever

[MedicalKit]

Lmfao this thread as bad as the glad one

what do you do if u have a non cleric tank and non cleric healer where da fuq do u get healing aura buff

from the dps clerics

judgemental hammer sucks but sader is still top dps so whatever

Nice points, good counter to any arguments. Please don't bring your lack of maturity here. It only makes you look stupid. Keep to the topic at hand.