Announcement

**zArAthena** · 11-23-2017, 05:27 AM

You are wrong at the very basic, very core of the problem. This statement is wrong and not TS opinion either: "gold is destroying the economy of the game".

**cyberunion1** · 11-23-2017, 10:24 AM

Remove the trading house / trading of gold function.

**MeshPolygon** · 11-23-2017, 11:59 AM

Since you still want to continue that, gonna post this one here to serve as guidance, found time and reevaluated that thread OP
- this is just a basic guide and is not meant to restrain the discussion, just try to stick to the topic, and avoid that incident >_^

->Ed do something about this fb page selling gold for real money/accounts

subject/topic:
*illegal/unregulated/unauthorized gold selling (unauthorized real-world-trading) RMT/RWT/RLM (topic generalized)

proposed problem (but not limited to):

- ED's not doing anything about this?
*- those movement of gold w/o exchange of service/produce ingame destroying ingame economy?
(- gold RWT is considered a real life service and is excluded from ingame economy,
one will farm gold, the other will pay for the farmed gold and labor service of the farmer.)
^ the reason it's hard to prove the charge of fraud. defrauded as a form of service.
- anything else related to topic.

proposed scope of discussion (but not limited to):

- ED's stand on these illegal/unregulated/unauthorized stuff
- insights and opinion of the community about the topic
- stuffs related to the ingame economy
- solutions/measures on this issue
- anything else related to topic.

proposed objectives of the discussion (but not limited to):

- to further understand ED side
- to come up a solution coming from a community consensus
- anything else related to topic.

happy trails :3

P.S. this forum is too limiting, no strikethrough text ><

**Nana Chan** · 11-23-2017, 06:22 PM

I for one oppose illegal means of trading gold but as to how to limit it to prevent more illegal trading I still can't find a possible
solution that will somehow lift the game's current situation into a better one. But never the less this kind of proposal which
involves removing of the gold system by replacing a new currency which isnt tradable in any means including TH except npc
or cash shop, would only possibly kill the game more. If you had been more observant, first was the time all servers HW/SW/GW/WW/BW
were merged a lot had already complained since it is abruptly destroying the market thus we see a number of friends leaving the game.
It was then followed by the removal of DNP trading system during the transfer which in my own estimate drops the population of active
players by 20-40% or even more. Now if you would want to remove trading gold system, how much do you think would the population of
DN remain thus after? It is common knowledge that the more population you have in DN, the more chances they will have cash players spending
for the game which in the long run helps keep the game running although most part of sustaining the game revolves around how ED manages it.

**XDRaV3N** · 11-24-2017, 12:50 AM

Yea I agree, the game might die if such changes is implemented.
So before the developers suddenly decides to do such a thing, we should voice our opinion, and discuss here, and hopefully come up with a better solution.
I think they are now trying their best to identity, ban and reduce the number of gold sellers, only problem is it might take a lot of resources to really satisfy players.
In the previous thread, there were a lot of arguments between players, causing players blame and accuse others.
So before we players kill the game itself, I guess we should discuss what is our acceptable level/method of solving this.
Hopefully some better method might appear, while the developers are doing their best at dealing with those gold sellers to satisfy players' complain.

**zArAthena** · 11-24-2017, 01:00 AM

So what is the problem with gold again. I asking about gold itself, not trading gold via RMT

**XDRaV3N** · 11-24-2017, 01:57 PM

From the past day, based on the comments so far, summary of what was discussed so far are as follows.

The "core" problem of this gold sellers issue is not due to abundance of gold, but abundance of gold sellers in game.

Gold sellers sell gold for benefit, and to discourage this illegal benefit, the following methods were proposed:
-Remove the trading house / trading of gold function.
-Disable any forms of trading in-game.

However most likely this would only possibly kill the game more, therefore we should discourage developers to do such changes.

So far no better idea or suitable method was proposed to solve this gold sellers issue.

Players remain uncertain of what is ED's stand on these illegal/unregulated/unauthorized stuff.

ED however do hints that developers are doing their best at dealing with those gold sellers to satisfy players' complain.

EDIT 1: Additional points
- "low gold generating content currently available with the rising static costs etc makes for a nice breeding ground for bots" but
- "If players can make all the gold needed in game in a reasonable amount of time then players will stop buying from the bots."

Additional info
- "In NA server, the botted gold has a bad effect on the economy over the past 9 months the bots were set loose upon NA server, which now ends up with a state of inflation"

Players' concern
- "ED might be the one behind the bots, therefore no serious action has been done against the bots."

**Naxsu** · 11-24-2017, 11:54 PM

We do not own any in-game items outside of the game(some needs EYE's consent). So why sell it with real money if it's not ours to do so?

**Nana Chan** · 11-25-2017, 08:44 AM

I just want to share something I know that's probably gonna affect a lot with the contents of this post.
Before I share this, I just want to say that this has already existed since the beginning of DN SEA and
not only for DN but for some other MMO as well, saying this though does not contemplate of me being on the side
of the illegal traders. So here it is, most of us pretty knew that ILLEGAL GOLD SELLING does exist. Why
illegal? simply because the trades does not involve gold to "anything" inside DN only like GOLD
to REAL MONEY also know as RMT(real money trading). What are the legal methods
of trading gold? AFAIK as long as you trade them inside the game only and without any outside currency
involved like? e.g TRADE MY GOLD to your X weapon. Others question why does this affect the market?
All I can answer is that if it does continue to grow, our dear brothers who usually BUY CC/EYET to sell cash
items at TH to get gold will now just directly buy gold from them and minimize the purchasing of the CC/EYET needed. Now, how does this affect the market or the game? Believe me or not, but purchasing CC/EYET helps the management in dealing with the financial aspects of the game to keep it running though IDK how greatly this
affects DN SEA now that ED is handling it. For the market side, since you can just buy gold directly by bulk amounts
or not, you can just rush buy some items at the TH and put your own price example of this is the hording of items. (I quite know a number of friends who buy loads of gold just to do this thus I can buy items cheap before they increase the price at TH). But all of these info I just shared are just meaningless even if you put into account that the proposals
that are given right now are even being heard by ED and somehow remove the gold trading system mainly because
GOLD AREN'T THE ONLY THING THAT'S BEING SOLD WITH REAL MONEY others such as:

1. ACCOUNT
2. PILOT SERVICE (leveling characters/nesting characters)
3. RUNE HC SERVICE
4. COSTUMES and other overly priced items at th
5. GENESIS ACCESSORIES and genesis crafting service
6. Even very cheap cherry credit codes
7. other stuffs which can be traded

are also sold with real money if you know who to approach. The shouts you see inside the game that
mr.XXX scammed "my gold/dnp" before inside the game is just a tiny part of the whole scamming issues
that are presently happening with real money. So if we really want to stop these whole ILLEGAL TRADING
SCHEMES , first is to track those sites that promotes and support these acts and not to randomly throw
stoned suggestions which in the long term can only ruin the game. I'm not to any of the illegal seller's side
nor the anti-illegal seller's side, the only reason I'm voicing this out is that I want the game to last longer
and I believe rush actions doesn't always become the best solution. I'm open for criticisms/bash/productive
talk.

**XDRaV3N** · 11-25-2017, 12:48 PM

Originally posted by XDRaV3N View Post

From the past day, based on the comments so far, summary of what was discussed so far are as follows.

The link to previous summary of what was discussed yesterday is as above.

For today's discussion summary, the following points were raised.

- "We do not own any in-game items outside of the game, why sell it with real money if it's not ours to do so"
- it is written in the code(ToU)/terms of condition that no one is allowed to sell it coz its not ours to sell it
- related question, "We do not own any in-game items outside of the game", why people still buying gold even though they know the gold is not theirs or the seller's?
- it's not gold that is being sold, it's selling the right of "temporary ownership"/leverage to another party who has more use for it
- players who buy gold from other players don't grind for gold themselves, they add no gold to the community.
- gold sellers whom are not botters, do they destroy the economy by transferring gold to other players via RMT?
- related question, what if rich players wish to sell their gold to poor players via RMT
- games dont die because of bots. A very famous game called Maplestory is filled with tons of bots, and here they are, standing strong and alive up til this day.
- gold aren't the only thing that's being sold with real money, others such as:
. account
. pilot services (leveling characters/nesting characters)
. rune hc services
. costumes and other overly priced items at th
. genesis accessories and genesis crafting service
. even very cheap cherry credit codes
. other stuffs which can be traded
. key note: services sold for real money, not for in game currency
- if it does continue to grow, those who usually BUY CC/EYET to sell cash items at TH to get gold will now just directly buy gold from them
- and minimize the purchasing of the CC/EYET needed, affecting profit of ED
- this is bad for market and player especially casual/newbie, as people can just buy gold directly by bulk amounts, horde and sell items in the Trading House at any self set price
- removing gold trading system is really not a good solution, and we should discourage ED to do such rush action.
- gold selling basically make people lazy and reduce the amount of effort they give in game, as they easily buy the items/materials they need in the Trading House.

Previous point continues
- "If players can make all the gold needed in game in a reasonable amount of time then players will stop buying from the bots."
- golden goblin dungeon might help alleviate our concerns on this issue as players have their own gold, reducing the need to buy from them

Possible effects
- however if gold can easily farmed through gold dungeon, implication to the Trading House might be inflation as gold will flood the market
- bots will most likely profit most from gold dungeon as they gain a huge amount of gold.
- this leads back to the effects of gold on the Trading House, it depends on how ED control the supply and gold consumption.
- players might still buy from gold sellers as gold needed vary a lot across many players.

Additional info on bots
- the leverage is being abused at the account level - not at the gold earning per account level
- account abusers who create multiple accounts, makes for multiple chances of obtaining gold
- "low gold generating content currently available with the rising static costs etc makes for a nice breeding ground for bots"

Possible solutions
- Nexon DN NA's previous way of dealing with multiple accounts is by banning all those accounts that were detected login in the same ip address, however this caused issue where certain players were wrongly banned.
- CherryCredits DN SEA's previous way of dealing with multiple accounts is by ensuring each account ties to a personal identification document, however certain players are saying that they are not happy with the need to reveal such personal infos.
- CC's way is evident when we contact the customer service to deal with account related issues and the first detail they ask is proof of identification, to prove they are not some form of ID thief and that they are the original owners
- to track those sites that promotes and support these acts

Players' concern
- players want to know ED's way of dealing with multiple accounts
- players want to know ED's stand on these illegal/unregulated/unauthorized stuff.
- players want the game to last longer, and worry that this illegal trading issue deter the developers from keeping the game continue running.

So far no other possible solutions was proposed.

Actually my original long post was not the main reason for this thread.
The actual reason I continued the previous thread's topic is to let people understand more on the situation, and let developers know other players' concern on the situation.
The daily discussion summary might be the one that we want the developers to read.

**XDRaV3N** · 11-26-2017, 03:51 PM

Originally posted by XDRaV3N View Post

For today's discussion summary, the following points were raised.

The Link to the previous daily discussion summary is as above.

From what was discussed in Day 3 of this thread, the following points were raised.

- rich players buy CC to exchange into ED currency to buy Jelly and sell for gold because they do not have the time to farm in-game, hence, using this form of legitimate real money trade to get gold
- some people resort to gold buying instead of this method because it's more gold per dollar despite it being illegal. Not saying they have the right to.
- percentage of gold buyer is quite small compare to the whole population
- but amount of gold traded in 1 transaction of real money trading can be more than hundreds of thousands of gold
- even just one illegal transaction can already weigh the total average gold of 50-100 players
- when you have tons of gold directly bought from gold sellers, you can easily gain some portion of market control of a certain item at TH by hording it

Previous points continues
- "this is bad for market and player especially casual/newbie, as people can just buy gold directly by bulk amounts, horde and sell items in the Trading House at any self set price"
- but situation of a gold buyers escalating is still quite far. Most players probably cannot afford to top up and probably never buy gold. That is why they farm and grind dungeons.
- loot don't come out of nowhere. There must be someone who clear the nest and sell the loot for gold. If this is hot item, many ppl will seek for that, gold buyer or not.

Previous points continues part 2
- "gold selling basically make people lazy and reduce the amount of effort they give in game, as they easily buy the items/materials they need in the Trading House."
- however there is no connection between gold buyer and reduction in number of people who clear nest.
- those gold buyer can get easy gold, they can gear fast with less effort than those pure farming, but that don't affect other pure farming.
- the reality is that the new nests has low profit capability lesser than 500g per run, therefore people do not want to run it, compared to the past up to 1k+ per nest run.

Previous points continues part 3
- "gold aren't the only thing that's being sold with real money"
- nests that drop harmony cubes for genesis earrings, not so many are interested in farming from this nest mainly because there exist people who sell gold or the genesis item itself.
- therefore supply of harmony cubes in TH is low as we have now.
- however total demand of an item through all server is the same no matter people buy gold or not.
- related question, what demands will be needed if most things like gold or the genesis item are acquirable by RMT?
- so does real money trading still won't affect the market?
- The situation of supply dropping will only occur if every player resorts to gold buying. However, that does not seem to be the case at the current situation, where ED is apparently not doing much to curb this issue.

Today's points continues
- integrity of any game is destroyed when you introduce the RMT aspect into a game, especially when it's not intended.
- gold generation hasn't caught up with how fast one can buy gold, this leads to an uncontrolled inflation of services/goods to the rest of the server if the gold buyers are huge in numbers.
- gold buying wouldn't even be a problem if we all could make gold in a reasonable amount of time to fulfill our goals in game.

Additional info on NA's inflation issue
- it may not be true that SEA will go down NA's path as DNSEA economy is not likely about to crash due to gold buyers.
- because SEA does not have the issue where gold is lacking, which allows bots to exceed the capability of players to overwhelm the economy.
- SEA's farming is still going strong with tonnes of players still farming.
- trying to look at the issue from an objective point of view, with no bias to either side.
- the bots will probably take longer to have the same impact on SEA than it did NA due to the size difference and the demographics of the players contained therein.
- prices for goods in NA are exceedingly becoming inflated due to gold buying. The market is very unstable at the moment.
- hoping the golden goblin dungeon will help alleviate NA's current "big" problem, by inducing a controlled inflation, makes for a much more stable economy.
- if everybody has gold because farming gold isn't a chore then the server as a whole will have more gold, reducing the need to buy from gold sellers.

Additional info on bots
- Nexon DN NA did an excellent job at bot control. As soon as the transfer to ED happened in NA, started to see more and more bots in the server.
- a few months went by and the server had become overrun with gold bots and their birding their various website, all in front of GM's too.
- NA too brought to light the bot problem and ED never acknowledged the problem aside from saying "we're working on it".
- the only time they banned people and released a list of those banned turned out to be mostly inactive accounts and apple farmers.

Players' concern
- players worry that real money trading will have a bad effect on the market.
- players worry that SEA's condition might worsen as this issue escalates to the point of inflation as what happen in NA.
- players speculates that the bots are ED's bots, therefore the bots issue is still not being taken care of.
- players want to hear from ED's side, for their point of view on the matter.

So far no other possible solutions was proposed.

Additional questions to players
- what is the better solution to this if ED's current method is not effective/efficient enough due to lack of resource?
- should they follow Nexon/CherryCredits's way of dealing with the issue? as it might be more effective than ED's current method
- what should ED avoid doing? which is really bad idea to do, as players might be dissatisfied

Lets hear more points from players on these, since we have a lot of points on why real money trading is good or bad for the game.

**Chocorroles** · 11-26-2017, 11:50 PM

You know what, removing the possibility of trading gold from the trade ui and the ability to mail gold to another character outside your own account would solve like 70% of all of issues, plus it would sove the problem of people doing transactions outside the Trading House to avoid tax.

Alternatively put a limit on how much gold you can trade/mail to a character in a different account per day.

**XDRaV3N** · 11-27-2017, 04:25 PM

Originally posted by XDRaV3N View Post

From what was discussed in Day 3 of this thread, the following points were raised.

The Link to yesterday's daily discussion summary is as above.

Points discussed in Day 4 of this thread were as follows.

- not illegal methods has always been done via selling cash items such as Gacha in TH, due to no time to farm in-game due to work.
- because it's faster and enhancing L requires large amounts: hundred thousands of gold is not earned suddenly from just farming and selling items in TH unless they are rare.
- however, we do not have any statistical count of how many resort to real money trading and what are the backgrounds of the players behind it. Demographics.
- ED or CC most likely have the actual data on those who legally purchase cash items with real money, converts them into gold/in game currency.
- but they might not have the actual/full data on those who illegally trade with real money.
- related question, "does purchases with real money/selling cash items can actually destroy the economy or the game?" question not limited to illegal real money trading.
- ED or CC might be less likely to reveal such actual data, but it would good to see if they are willing to reveal/disclose it, as players do concern about what is their stand on this matter.

Speculation on ED's point of view
- ED cannot ignore the cash players, as they do bring profits to their Company.
- but ED cannot ignore the non-cash players as well, as they might represents a large player base which supports the game. (no factual evidence/actual data to back this)
- ED is trying to find a solution that satisfies both sides, where cash players might want to know what is ED's direction of the cash aspect of the game,
- while non-cash players might want to know what is ED's efforts on cash players that resort to illegal real money purchases.

Proposed solutions
- remove trading gold from the trade ui and the ability to mail gold to another character outside your own account.
- key note: characters outside own account
- put a limit on how much gold you can trade/mail to a character in a different account per day

Possible effects
- this method might be more acceptable by the players as it does not fully prohibited any transfer.
- it discourages this illegal gold trading.
- it encouraged players to trade in the Trading House which is subjected to tax.
- however, putting a cap to how much gold per account can receive might even feel worse.
- limit to trading doesn't push gold prices down.
- multi-accounts abuse to circumvent the account cap might still be a problem, which returns to the previous point raised,
- "the leverage is being abused at the account level - not at the gold earning per account level"

Players' concern
- players want to know ED's view of the cash aspect of the game. (not limited to illegal real money purchases)
- players want to know ED's efforts on cash players that resort to illegal real money purchases
- players want to know ED's way of dealing with multiple accounts

ED might be trying to balance the benefits of cash purchases/real money aspect of the game, and its effects on the game.
Meanwhile we players can try to think on the following points.
- what is the better solution to this if ED's current method is not effective/efficient enough due to lack of resource?
- what should ED avoid doing? which is really bad idea to do, as players might be dissatisfied.

**XDRaV3N** · 11-28-2017, 02:15 PM

Originally posted by XDRaV3N View Post

Points discussed in Day 4 of this thread were as follows.

The Link to the previous daily discussion summary is as above.

Day 5 of this discussion thread continues.

- example if ratio of 1 seller : 10 buyer, this shows 9 potential farmers are lost just because they rely to the seller.
- but total effort is the same, to get enough gold for 10 people, he need to farm 10 times of the other when them farm for themselves.

Proposed solutions
- implement two-step verification, where second verification requiring an sms verification with a non-repeating phone/sms.
- multi accounts are tied down each to a unique phone number.

Possible effects
- it minimizes account abuse. Don't think players keeping hundreds of phone numbers.
- this also helps to enhance players' account security, as there has been a rise of accounts being hacked for some unknown reason.
- currently account details, passwords etc, can be easily changed if hackers managed to brute force into the account and/or email.
- but it might puts people without a phone number at a dilemma.
- and how practical will it be? ED's actions make it seem like they are understaffed to do this.
- this system can possibly be automated, although ED might need to invest some time to set it up.
- ED might have to shoulder the cost for sms sending nodes, paid to the telcos from a few countries.
- but if ED managed to automate this system, ED could save cost from hiring more GMs to deal with players issue.

Players' concern
- players are worried that their accounts are not secure, as there seems to be lack of security currently.

However, we do need more players opinions on this, as not many voiced out their opinion on whether multiple accounts abuse caused botters to take advantage of this.
Maybe this could mean, not many players think that botters/multiple account abuse is causing a problem to the overall game. (I guess because the topic is kinda fading also)
But we do see a rise of players complaining about accounts being hacked for some unknown reason, could be keylogger, phishing sites, lack of security measures etc.
Meanwhile we wait for any response/opinion from ED's side on any of these matters,
I guess we shall continue on the following points, taking into account those points discussed today.
- what is the better solution to this if ED's current method is not effective/efficient enough due to lack of resource?
- what should ED avoid doing? which is really bad idea to do, as players might be dissatisfied.

Announcement

Gold sellers topic continues, feel free to give your ideas here

Gold sellers topic continues, feel free to give your ideas here

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